Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I have been clear that Newtownards library is a priority project for me, and the approval of the outline business case demonstrates greater progress than has been made in many years. I hope that that is of some comfort to the people of Newtownards. <BR /> <BR />Governance arrangements are being finalised, and design work is progressing, so the project now has a clear pathway. I remain committed to delivering the project, and I will continue to monitor it closely as it moves towards delivery. I assure the Member that I will continue to engage with Executive colleagues as part of the Budget process to seek and secure the necessary funding for it.”
“<BR /> <BR />In parallel, an integrated design team has been appointed, with the intention of submitting a planning application for the combined council and library facility within the current financial year. As with all major capital projects, progress will depend on the conditions of approval being met and on the prioritisation of investment within a very constrained public-sector Budget. I remain committed to seeing the project delivered for the people of Newtownards, however.”
“The redevelopment of Newtownards library will deliver modern, accessible library services for the local community and form part of a wider cultural hub for the area. It is a key priority for Libraries NI, and its partnership with Ards and North Down Borough Council, which is leading the project, is important. <BR /> <BR />I can report that the outline business case for the project was approved in March 2026. That was a significant step forward and follows the resolution of the complex governance, partnership working and value-for-money issues involved in a project of that significance. Libraries NI and its council partners are now working to establish the arrangements required for the delivery phase of the project.”
“Absolutely. I have made tackling that fraud a priority since I came into office, which, I know, has been a source of frustration for other parties, including Sinn Féin. The issues are connected, because the fewer social homes that there are, the longer that the waiting list is. If people are committing fraud, I make no apology for making sure that we take appropriate action. We need to prioritise public services for those who need them, not for fraudsters. <BR /> <BR />The Member talks about Sinn Féin hypocrisy when it comes to social housing. The greatest hypocrisy of all from Sinn Féin, however, is the continued failure of its Finance Minister to fund the social housing development programme properly. If housing is a priority, it should be funded. It has not been funded, yet that is what we need to see happen.”
“Of course we need to make sure that housing fraud cases are accurate, and of course appeals processes should be in place. We will certainly make sure that people have the opportunity to give a true representation of their circumstances. Mistakes can happen, but it is important that we crack down on fraud, because, as has been pointed out, it has a significant cost to the public purse and, most importantly, denies homes to people who need them. I always say that we will have robust processes in place so that those who are doing the right thing will have nothing to fear.”
“My Department undertook two exercises — in 2015 and 2016 — to establish a baseline. Those were reported on at the time. Those exercises did not successfully identify a level of undetected fraud. We have been collecting data from social landlords on tenancy fraud and misuse since then, but I want to see improvements to how data is collected on suspected fraud, confirmed fraud and recoveries. A report on social housing fraud in England, 'Lost homes, lost hope', published in 2023, estimated that one in 30 homes is subject to some form of tenancy fraud, with many cases going undetected. The NIAO has recommended that we establish an evidence-based estimate of undetected fraud. That will require further work, but we are committed to doing that.”
“Those actions include a clause in the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill to allow a specialist team within the Housing Executive to investigate tenancy fraud on behalf of registered housing associations. <BR /> <BR />I hosted Northern Ireland’s first conference on tenancy fraud, in November 2025, bringing together experts from across the UK to share lessons learned. I also committed to publishing proposals for consultation, including plans for ambitious new legislation and an overarching strategy on tenancy fraud and misuse. Those will be brought forward by the end of this month. I am glad to have the support of the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO), which recently recognised the value of that work.”
“I have made it a priority to protect our social homes as valuable public assets, because every house matters. In 2024, my Department initiated a review of tenancy fraud policies and practices and established a collaborative forum, namely the tenancy fraud oversight group. That group works closely with the Housing Executive, registered housing associations and other key partners, including with representatives from the UK Tenancy Fraud Forum, to develop a more coordinated and effective approach to tackling tenancy fraud, identifying key issues and sharing best practice. Over a year ago, I tasked officials with taking forward short-, medium- and long-term actions in relation to that review.”
“We have seen a number of smaller grant schemes to help improve town centres across Northern Ireland. Increasingly, in some of the regeneration schemes — the Member mentioned the Living over the Shop scheme — housing-led regeneration is helping our town centres. Help specifically for the businesses to which the Member referred is not primarily a matter for my Department, but we are playing our role in helping to improve public realms and town and city centres more generally. I look forward to further announcements on that in the days to come.”
“Across Northern Ireland, you will see examples of how the Department has invested in urban regeneration schemes. I will be in Strabane later this week. Work has been done in north Belfast, in Glengormley, and we have seen schemes in other parts of Belfast.”
“Yes, there are times when we will find ourselves in agreement, and this is one of those times. He is right to stand up for the views of retail workers not just in the city but across Northern Ireland. I, for one, am delighted that I was here for that little moment of history.”
“My goodness, Gerry Carroll and I are on the same page for once. Can we all take a note of the date and time?”
“<BR /> <BR />As for how we compare with elsewhere, our Sunday trading hours, relatively speaking, mirror those in much of the rest of the UK. However, other countries, such as Austria, Germany, Switzerland and Norway, have an even more restrictive system. You often hear the argument that we are among the most restrictive in Europe, but that is simply not the case. As I said, it is not a priority for me as we head towards the end of the mandate.”
“The consultation that was carried out by Belfast City Council related to proposals to extend Sunday opening hours throughout the city during the summer months. The consultees were not asked whether they supported the extension on a permanent basis or whether it should apply beyond Belfast City Council boundaries, so the consultation responses cannot be interpreted as evidence that people across Northern Ireland support such an extension. I am, however, aware of the views of businesses, retailers and, in particular, retail workers who would be expected to work on Sundays. As has been pointed out, the views are much more divided from that perspective, with approximately 40% of businesses and retailers opposed to the proposals and retail workers evenly split.”
“— it would get broad support quickly across the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />Of course, this is what Sinn Féin does: it interrupts when it does not agree with what is being said. That is a sensible position that can be adopted, and I encourage Sinn Féin to do that.”
“The measures that have public support can go through. The Members opposite have been really passionate about some of the measures that have huge and widespread support across the Chamber. Therefore, in the meantime, why not proceed with the measures on which there is agreement? That could be done quickly by urgent procedure. If that were to happen —”
“If the Member wants to listen, she will hear that we have a way forward here. We can split the Bill. Those measures that have wide public support —”
“If she is in favour of bringing forward some of the measures that will, she thinks, help and that have support across the Chamber, Sinn Féin should bring to the Executive a proposal to split the Bill. Those measures that —.”
“That was one consultation in one area, and the Member has rightly highlighted the fact that retail workers were evenly split on it. It is important that we recognise the concerns that many people have. Often, those who were opposed were the most passionate about their view, because they would be more impacted on than anybody else. It is clear that there is no consensus on the issue among those who are involved, which includes the 40% of businesses that are not seeking a change. Given the time that remains in the mandate, that is not the right priority for us.”
“My Department has responsibility for the legislation that governs Sunday shop opening hours. Any change to the hours set out in the Shops (Sunday Trading &c.) (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 would require primary legislation. I have no plans to review the hours prescribed in legislation and can confirm that no work is being undertaken to assess public support for the extension of Sunday trading hours.”
“Work on that is going on as a result of the draft strategy, and the Member will know that issues around transport feature heavily in it. Many people are concerned about how they can get to work. The specific issue that he referenced is one for the Department for Infrastructure to consider and take forward. His views are on the record, and I am sure that the Minister will take them on board.”
“Often, little is required of them in order to make the reasonable adjustments that allow people to come into the workplace. That work will continue to make sure that we give employers that confidence and give potential employees confidence that the workplace is somewhere for them: a place where disabled people can not only work but progress. That is something that I am committed to. We see that commitment through the disability and work strategy and the transformation project.”
“First of all, we have the disability and work strategy, which is cross-departmental and has been endorsed by the Executive. It is important that that is in place, because this is not something that I can sort out in one Department. The issues are multilayered, and we need to make sure that we work together to address them. That again brings in the transformation project, which is about working with the Department for the Economy and the Department of Health to make sure that we tackle the barriers to getting people into the workforce. <BR /> <BR />I have seen some of the excellent work that is already being done to ensure that employers are in a position to take people on. We need to help give employers confidence, because there are many of them who are perhaps unsure about what will be required of them.”
“We should want for all our citizens that they continue to deliver and to develop their skills and abilities, so we want to ensure that we provide the necessary support for them. That is why the pathways to work and well-being transformation project is so important. It means taking a step back from what we have always done, and it challenges us all to redesign the current health and work system and to deliver something that is far more joined up and effective in addressing the wider issues that are preventing people from finding and staying in work.”
“I am grateful to the Member for that question. As I am sure she knows by now, that is a key area of concern for me. Our economic inactivity rate is simply too high. We have too many people on welfare, and that burden is being carried by everyone else. Many individuals who are economically inactive face multiple and often overlapping barriers, including ill health, disability, caring responsibilities and skill gaps. We will continue to deliver targeted employment support programmes, including Workable and Access to Work, which are provisions delivered through our front line, and interventions commissioned under the labour market partnerships that aim to help those furthest from the labour market to find employment. <BR /> <BR />Importantly, the Member also raised the issue of progress in employment.”
“Ultimately, however, I want to do what works best for people here. It is right for us to keep that scheme under review and see what comes from it. However, it does not result in any material change for people here.”
“It is important ongoing work. We need to ensure that we have in place the support that allows people to break free from the benefits system. We know how difficult that can be, as one of the barriers is that people are concerned about the loss of support. That is why the disability and work strategy is in place. That work has to intersect with the welfare system to make sure that it serves people's needs and does not keep them bound to benefits. The transformation project that was announced recently will be so important in helping us to tackle economic inactivity, because it brings together the different sections — including Health, importantly — to make sure that there is integrated support that makes a difference to people here. <BR /> <BR />We will keep an eye on the changes that will come in the rest of the UK.”
“<BR /> <BR />After considering the risks identified by the SSAC, I have decided to monitor DWP's implementation of the scheme before bringing forward equivalent legislation for Northern Ireland. That does not result in any material change to the delivery of benefits to people with disabilities in Northern Ireland and preserves the flexibility to legislate later if DWP implementation proves effective and the response to the scheme is positive.”
“The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) legislation was subject to scrutiny by the Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC), which found that the amendments did not give claimants the clarity or assurance needed to remove the fear of reassessment. The scrutiny highlighted the fact that, although work itself would not trigger reassessment, work activities could still be interpreted as evidence of improved functional capability. That could impact on future work capability assessments or personal independence payment (PIP) decisions. The SSAC also raised concerns that claimants returning to universal credit (UC) may face stricter conditionality requirements and be exposed to a greater threat of sanctions.”
“I beg to introduce the Charities (Amendment) Bill [NIA 36/22-27], which is a Bill to amend the Charities Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 in various respects.”
“I appreciate the Member's generosity in giving way. The reason why those matters are important and pertinent to today’s debate is that, if we want to put the interventions in place through local government and the Department, we need the funding. Tackling fraud and moving people into work are the ways we can do that because it provides the funding. It is important, pertinent and worth discussing.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. We are not complacent about poverty levels, but it is worth noting that there has been a statistically significant decrease in child poverty from 21% to 16%. It is still too high, but it shows some of the progress that has been made. It is a much better figure than that for other parts of the UK, but there is much more still to do.”
“I am committed to doing that, and I look forward to working with others in the Chamber and outside it in the interests of people across our communities who require our focus and hard work on the issue the most.”
“<BR /> <BR />We share an ambition to alleviate poverty in our society and an understanding of the complexity of the challenge, which is increased by our highly constrained funding environment. I genuinely believe that this is among the most important work that we can do, but we will succeed only by working in partnership. To that end, I had a meeting with the Chair of the Communities Committee to set out the way forward and to make him an offer to have genuine engagement, which I have now extended to other parties in the House. I am happy to engage. I want to hear ideas and to put in place something that is affordable, can be delivered, is costed and can make a real change to people's lives.”
“I have therefore requested urgent and ambitious action to maximise all opportunities for collaboration and shared delivery across government, local government and broader partnerships; to exploit fully effective measures to prevent entry into and support exit from poverty; to deliver refreshed funding approaches in order to explore opportunities to achieve greater value from public money for existing programmes in my Department, with a view to releasing capacity to fund new anti-poverty measures; to put in place targets and indicators that are within our ability to deliver and that will measure progress and keep us accountable; and to deliver and develop a costed, detailed delivery plan in due course.”
“Given the exposure of the poorest households in Northern Ireland to a highly volatile energy market and, in particular, the cost of home heating oil, I believe that the final version of the strategy can be more ambitious in setting out the interventions that we will take in relation to fuel poverty.”
“For example, the strategy needs to better reflect the fact that well-planned routes to employment can be a route out of poverty. We are taking forward significant new work to tackle economic inactivity. That work is core to reducing poverty. <BR /> <BR />The draft strategy does not fully reflect the scale of our intent and ambition on fuel poverty reduction. As Members know, officials in my Department have been working on the development of a new warm healthy homes strategy, which will modernise and, I hope, expand on the work of the affordable warmth programme.”
“Late last year, I shared the results of the consultation with all Ministers so that they could consider further actions that they could undertake to push the strategy forward. Officials in my Department have been engaging with their counterparts on how best to reflect consultation results in light of departmental priorities and available budgets. I was pleased to see that a number of stakeholders in the sector welcomed the report that we produced as being honest and open, and I take seriously the views of everyone who responded to the strategy. I have been clear from the outset that the strategy will change. I briefed the Communities Committee earlier this month, and I was clear that there will be substantive and substantial change.”
“There is further debate and discussion to be had about the usefulness of an overall poverty target when we have limited levers to deal with it in the Assembly and through the work of the Executive. The UK Government, local government, the voluntary and community sector and businesses have a role to play, and individuals have a big role to play. I am more than happy to be held to account for the things that we have promised, and for the things that we can deliver on. There is a wider discussion to be had on an overarching anti-poverty target, but I am more than happy to explore that and to take the views of Executive colleagues on it. <BR /> <BR />What are the next steps? We have taken on board what has been said by partners in local government.”
“I am glad that that message is starting to get across — I have heard it from a few Members today. As Sian said in response to an intervention from Mr McMurray, it requires a cross-departmental strategy. I have said that repeatedly, but not because I am trying to share this around or share the blame or criticism. If we want this to be effective, we have to have everybody buying into it. It is right that that is realised and that all the things that need to be in place are in place. <BR /> <BR />Issues about targets and outcomes were also raised. It is critical that we have in place measurable and effective actions and targets to measure them against, because we need to show that we are making progress.”
“It has been a problem for a long time, and we need to address it if we want to address all the other issues that come from it. <BR /> <BR />Absolutely, let us invest and make sure that we spend money on getting people better; getting people into a fit state to get into employment; and breaking down barriers, be they in childcare or access to jobs because of rurality or whatever else. We need good jobs. We will have the opportunity to talk about the 'good jobs' Bill. We need to make sure that that is fully investigated and that we achieve what we set out to do, because there are a lot of concerns in the business community as to whether the Bill will make that happen or make things worse. <BR /> <BR />That brings me on to another comment that Sian made. She is absolutely right that this cannot only be tackled from a desk in Stormont.”
“One of my biggest concerns is the fact that we have the highest welfare bill of any part of the UK and the highest disability rate of anywhere in the UK. We spend huge sums of money, and have done so for decades, and guess what? There has been no noticeable change or difference. We have to ask ourselves whether it is really working: are the billions and billions of pounds that we are spending actually making a difference? Are we paying people to stay unwell rather than investing in making them well? That is one of the big issues that we should be grappling with. That is the real scandal. It does not take up time on the airwaves or space in the pages of our newspapers, but it is a train that is coming down the track at us.”
“Of course it is the case that all those issues need to be addressed. There is a myriad of reasons why we have so many people who are economically inactive. For some, it is by choice because of caring responsibilities or other issues; for some, it is because barriers are in place. Why are we not spending some money to tackle those barriers?”
“The evidence shows that work can help, but it is also important because getting people off welfare and into work frees up huge sums of money for the targeted interventions that we need. <BR /> <BR />Many in the House are fed up with hearing me talk about the importance of getting people into work and dealing with our welfare system. There has been opposition to my approaches to tackling fraud and error in the welfare system. I make no apology for focusing on that and on the huge numbers of people in Northern Ireland who are economically inactive. Ten years ago, the working-age welfare bill in the UK was £75 billion in today's money. Today, that has gone up to £136 billion, which is an 80% increase. If we get people into work, it frees up billions of pounds that we can use in more targeted ways to help those who are most in need.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will refer to some of the comments that were made during the debate that are worthy of note. Pam Cameron rightly acknowledged that councils do significant work. She also highlighted an important issue that Sian Mulholland mentioned as well, and that is the importance of employment and ensuring that employability programmes are in place. Sian said that we needed to make sure that we help those who are in work, and I absolutely agree with her. One of my most pressing concerns is that we have people who are in employment and are going out to work and doing their best but feel penalised. They feel that they are not getting the support that they require. Not for one second have I said that work will be the silver bullet that fixes everything, although it is a very important step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Work has also been undertaken with other key partners during and after the consultation, because we know that tackling poverty and its root causes requires system changes that nobody in the world has been able to fully achieve, but it is clear that, if we work together, we can make a lasting difference, and that is what I intend to do. We have already made a start on that. We did not wait for the anti-poverty strategy to be in place before we progressed some of the issues, including some that the co-design group asked us to take forward, and that is what we are doing. I welcome the report, and I will certainly recommend to my Executive colleagues that we take the recommendations forward. I am grateful to the Committee for its work.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many organisations, including local government, will be essential to the delivery of the strategy, and it is important to acknowledge that. We have a strong track record of delivery in partnership with councils, and we have well-established relationships with councils through the community planning partnerships so that we can develop housing, regeneration and employability services. We will continue to work in partnership through the community planning partnerships and other fora to deliver the anti-poverty strategy.”
“Dedicated engagement sessions were undertaken with the Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE) to provide an opportunity for direct discussions between officials and local government representatives. It is important that I put that on record, because some of the comments today, particularly from Mr Durkan, would make you think that there has been no engagement with councils, and that was certainly not the case during the consultation process. As I outlined, we had many events and engaged with representatives from nearly all the councils. We had written responses to the consultation from all the councils, and we have engaged on the report. It is unfair to say that there has been no involvement.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank the Committee for the work that it has done on taking forward and developing the report. I broadly agree with the core finding of the report that local government is essential to tackling the problem of poverty — not just local government but all our delivery partners across society. Work will be required from the voluntary and community sector, churches, faith organisations, businesses and communities to make a real, lasting, long-term change. <BR /> <BR />I fully recognise the importance of local government in this area. Indeed, my officials have already taken steps to involve local government in the consultation on the anti-poverty strategy.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. He frequently refers to the need for rent controls, yet all the evidence that we have from other cities such as Madrid and Berlin and from the rent control zones in the Republic of Ireland shows that they do not work. The Member previously committed to bringing forward evidence of how they work, but he has failed to do so. Is that because that evidence does not exist?”