Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“It may well be that keeping that money where it is and keeping the existing mitigations in place is the best way to do it. There may be other things we can do as well that are more targeted towards those in need. Members will be aware of some of the mitigations that have been suggested in addition to what we have. It may be that we need to look at those as a whole. <BR /> <BR />I will come back to Sian Mulholland if I miss any of her comments in my response. It is believed that increasing the cap in line with the CPI strikes the right balance as regards the challenging economic climate that we find ourselves in and the associated pressures and is in line with the increase in most of the social security benefits that we saw in 2023. I may have missed something, but I am more than happy to come back to the Member.”
“I welcome the support for the regulations from across the House, including from the Deputy Chairperson and the rest of the Committee. I will remark on some of the comments that were made. <BR /> <BR />As I said, a review will be carried out on the future of mitigation payments. I want the review to be completed as soon as possible so that I can consider it. Certainly, there is consensus among those who have spoken today about the need for mitigations to continue. The mitigations exist in many different forms, but I will have to wait for the report to come back and consider each on its merits. We have a tight budgetary environment, and I want to make sure that we put the resources where they can most help those in need.”
“The increase reflects and is based on the September 2022 CPI. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion to the House.”
“The Benefit Cap (Annual Limit) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2023 came into operation on 1 April of that year to establish the revised benefit cap limits in line with the equivalent provision made by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in Great Britain. Those confirmatory regulations were revoked and re-enacted by the Benefit Cap (Annual Limit) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2023 to maintain the revised limits. Those regulations were revoked and re-enacted by the Benefit Cap (Annual Limit) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024, which came into operation on 21 March 2024. The proposed rule maintains the annual benefit cap levels that were increased by 10·1% from April 2023 to £22,020 for couples and lone parents and to £14,753 for single people.”
“<BR /> <BR />The benefit cap is not reviewed annually in the way that most social security benefits are; rather, there is a statutory duty on the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to review the benefit cap levels at least once every five years. The benefit cap was introduced in GB in April 2013, and the levels were reviewed in 2014. A further review was not undertaken until November 2022. The outcome of that review resulted in increases to the benefit cap levels from 1 April 2023. When the Secretary of State makes regulations that amend the annual benefit cap, the Department for Communities may make corresponding amending regulations.”
“The rates apply across the United Kingdom with the exception of households living in greater London, which are subject to higher limits. The increase enables households to receive benefits up to the value of gross earnings of around £26,500. <BR /> <BR />While there are exemptions from the cap for universal credit households, I emphasise that, under the current welfare supplementary payment schemes, the impact of the benefit cap is fully mitigated for families with children in Northern Ireland. That ensures financial protection for families who have a reduction in benefit due to the benefit cap. The mitigation payments are due to expire on 31 March 2025. My Department has recently commenced a statutory review to consider the future of the mitigation payments post March 2025.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The statutory rule that we are considering is the most recent in a series of confirmatory procedure statutory rules that effect an increase in the benefit cap levels in Northern Ireland by 10·1% from April 2023 in line with the rest of the United Kingdom. The regulations amend the rates in the Welfare Reform and Work (Northern Ireland) Order 2016, the Universal Credit Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016 and the Housing Benefit Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006. <BR /> <BR />The increase in the annual benefit cap limit was to ensure that all households would see an increase in their benefit following the benefit upgrading from April 2023 in line with the CPI. The cap increased from £20,000 to £22,020 a year for couples and lone parents, and from £13,400 to £14,753 for single people.”
“I am grateful to the Deputy Chair and the Committee for their support. I commend the motion to the House.”
“Where a person fails to comply with a request for information, the Pensions Regulator can impose fixed and escalating penalties that are broadly consistent with other penalties that can be imposed by the regulator. The regulations provide more detail about the actions that trustees must take if a scheme experiences a triggering event. The Pensions Regulator will work with the scheme to ensure that appropriate action is taken at each stage, including notifying employers and members about what has happened and what their options are if the scheme is going to wind up. Restrictions on charges in the Act mean that additional costs cannot be passed on to members. <BR /> <BR />In summary, these regulations introduce a robust authorisation and supervision regime for master trust pension schemes.”
“The Pensions Regulator will assess each master trust scheme against authorisation criteria aimed at addressing the risks specific to master trusts. Those include that the persons involved in running the scheme are fit and proper, and that the scheme is financially sustainable. Once authorised, master trust schemes are required to continue to meet the authorisation criteria. <BR /> <BR />These regulations also set out requirements relating to the Pensions Regulator's supervisory role. The regulator can withdraw authorisation if it is no longer satisfied that the authorisation criteria are met. The regulations set out further detail on information to be provided to the regulator while the scheme is running, which will help the regulator to consider whether it is satisfied that the authorisation criteria for schemes continue to be met.”
“<BR /> <BR />Master trust scheme structures create specific risks that were not addressed by the legislation, which was designed for other types of pension scheme. The regulations aim to address the potential impact of the risks for master trust scheme members by providing an authorisation and supervision regime administered by the Pensions Regulator, which operates UK-wide. The authorisation regime requires all master trust schemes to be authorised by the Pensions Regulator. The Pensions Regulator's ongoing supervision regime will ensure that master trust schemes continue to meet the authorisation criteria. It also gives the regulator greater powers to engage with and, if appropriate, intervene if a master trust scheme is in danger of failing to meet the authorisation criteria.”
“This rule is the current replacement of the original regulations, which came into operation on 6 April 2022. The rule provides for the authorisation and supervision regime for master trust pension schemes under the Pension Schemes Act (Northern Ireland) 2021, which corresponds to provision for Great Britain in the Pension Schemes Act 2017. <BR /> <BR />A master scheme is one that must be used by more than one employer, provides money purchase pensions, and is not a public-sector scheme or used by only connected employers — for example, by one profession or group of companies. Many employers have chosen to enrol their workers into a master trust scheme rather than setting up their own pension scheme. That led to a considerable expansion of the master trust market.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee, and to the Committee, for their support. I commend the motion to the House.”
“If they have not done that, they are required to confirm why. <BR /> <BR />The overall aim of the remedies is to encourage trustees to engage better and to monitor the value for money of the services that they use. Better oversight of the measures should also have a positive impact on defined-contribution members' pots and defined benefit funding shortfalls.”
“the relevant provision. The regulations also amend regulation 3 of the Register of Occupational and Personal Pension Schemes Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2005 so as to require certain information about investment consultancy providers and fiduciary management providers to be included in the scheme's return, among other things. Trustees are required to provide the relevant detail about each of their fiduciary management providers and about whether the trustees carried out a qualifying tender process. If they did not carry out such a process for that provider, the trustees have to state why it was not carried out. Trustees are also required to confirm relevant details of each of their investment consultancy providers and of whether the trustees have set and reviewed the objectives and reviewed the performance of the provider.”
“The regulations also set out what the qualifying tender process is and when it must be carried out. <BR /> <BR />Those duties encourage trustees to become more engaged with the way in which services are bought, monitored and evaluated or to consider more efficient consolidation options. In turn, that leads to better outcomes for scheme members and employer sponsors of schemes. Specific enforcement powers are given to the Pensions Regulator in connection with those duties. For example, a process is set out whereby the regulator may issue a compliance notice or third-party compliance notice if:”
“Trustees of occupational pension schemes are required to set objectives for persons who provide them with investment consultancy services, review those objectives at intervals of no more than three years and review annually the performance of providers against the objectives. Setting objectives enables trustees to monitor the performance of their advisers and get better value for money in the long term. <BR /> <BR />Trustees are also required to carry out a qualifying tender process when continuing to use existing fiduciary management providers, or when appointing new ones, if the scheme meets the asset management threshold. The threshold is met when fiduciary managers, who are covered by the regulations, manage 20% or more of the in-scope assets.”
“The CMA made a number of recommendations, including a recommendation for legislation to enable the Pensions Regulator to oversee the duties on trustees to allow for effective enforcement. <BR /> <BR />The rule brings into law various duties placed on trustees in defined benefit and defined contribution occupational pension schemes. The regulations primarily amend the Occupational Pension Schemes (Scheme Administration) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997 to impose duties on trustees of relevant trust schemes in connection with the provision of fiduciary management schemes by fiduciary management providers.”
“This rule is the replacement for the original regulations, which came into operation on 1 October 2022. The rule integrates into pensions law provisions of the Investment Consultancy and Fiduciary Management Market Investigation Order 2019, which was made by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA). It also enables the Pensions Regulator to oversee compliance by trustees of relevant pension schemes to allow for effective monitoring and enforcement. <BR /> <BR />In broad terms, investment consultancy is the provision of advice to trustees on investment strategy and related matters. Fiduciary management involves the delegation by trustees of some investment decisions to advisers.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to the Deputy Chair and the Committee for their support and for the evident enthusiasm from the rest of the Chamber. I commend the motion to the House.”
“These regulations, along with the occupational pension schemes regulations of 2022, implement the authorisation and supervisory regime for collective money purchase schemes.”
“The regulations set out further detail on information to be provided to the regulator while the scheme is running, which will help the regulator to consider whether it is satisfied that the authorisation criteria for schemes continue to be met. <BR /> <BR />The regulations also provide more detail about the actions that trustees must take if a scheme experiences a triggering event. Those are certain events, which are set out in primary legislation, that can pose a threat to the future of the scheme and the interests of members. The regulations also provide for consequential amendments to other sets of regulations: for example, to make provision for an alternative automatic enrolment quality test for collective money purchase schemes.”
“Those include criteria to ensure that only fit and proper persons are involved in key capacities relating to those schemes; that the design of the scheme is sound and complies with the legislative requirements; and that the scheme has sufficient financial resources to meet the costs of setting up and running the scheme and to take the necessary steps if things go wrong. <BR /> <BR />If the Pensions Regulator is not satisfied that all the authorisation criteria are met, it cannot authorise the scheme. The regulations also set out requirements relating to the Pensions Regulator's supervisory role. The regulator can withdraw authorisation if it is no longer satisfied that the authorisation criteria are met.”
“<BR /> <BR />Income in retirement from collective money purchase schemes is subject to periodic adjustment, which is designed to achieve a balance between a scheme's assets and the amount required for the provision of benefits. Collective money purchase schemes are believed to be more sustainable for employers and employees alike, and they have the potential to offer better outcomes for pension scheme members. <BR /> <BR />To build confidence in these new schemes, it is considered essential that only well-run schemes be allowed to operate. The regulations set out detailed requirements for the process for applying to the Pensions Regulator for authorisation, as well as details regarding the authorisation criteria that need to be met in order for collective money purchase schemes to operate.”
“<BR /> <BR />Collective money purchase schemes provide an alternative in which the contributions of members and employers are pooled and invested with a view to delivering benefits at the level to which the scheme aspires. They offer potential benefits and economies of scale and the opportunity for greater investment in higher returning assets than are usually associated with defined contribution occupational pension schemes. Their collective nature means that investment and longevity risks are shared across the membership. As these schemes provide an income to pensioner members, there is no need for members to make complex financial decisions at the point of retirement.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This rule is the current replacement of the original regulations, which came into operation on 1 August 2022. The rule provides for an authorisation and supervision regime for collective money purchase (CMP) schemes, which are commonly known as collective defined contribution (CDC) pension schemes. Currently, there are two primary types of pension schemes: defined benefits schemes, where the employer underwrites the pension benefits that are paid to employees; and defined contribution schemes, whereby individual members bear all the investment and longevity risks, and there are no employer guarantees regarding what the member may receive at retirement.”
“I am grateful to Mr Kingston, the Deputy Chair and the rest of the Committee for their support. I commend the motion to the House.”
“In complying with the requirements to assess the value for members that their scheme provides and to report net investment returns and on costs and charges, trustees and managers are required to have regard to guidance issued by the Department. <BR /> <BR />In summary, the measures in the regulations offer opportunities to improve outcomes for members of defined contribution schemes.”
“<BR /> <BR />The regulations also require trustees of qualifying collective money purchase schemes to include an explanation of their policies on investing in illiquid assets in their statement of investment principles. That is to reflect the fact that such schemes do not have default investment funds. They also make consequential amendments to, for example, the information that must be published on a publicly available website. The regulations amend the definition of charges to exclude performance fees when assessing whether a scheme complies with the charge cap. That is the limit on the charges that can be applied to default investment funds.”
“For example, it includes provision to require trustees of relevant schemes to include an explanation of their policy on investing in illiquid assets. The regulations also require trustees of relevant schemes to report annually on the percentage of assets allocated to different investment asset clauses in their default arrangements and to disclose certain specified performance fees incurred in the scheme year. Those measures aim to encourage the consolidation of defined contribution pension schemes so that members are able to benefit from economies of scale and access to a diverse range of asset classes that larger schemes bring. They have been introduced alongside guidance to help trustees of schemes that are in scope to meet the requirements.”
“The rule places administration and governance requirements on trustees of occupational defined contribution pension schemes, in particular to require trustees of certain schemes to disclose their investment returns and demonstrate that they are providing value for their members. It also increases flexibility for defined contribution schemes to make greater use of performance fees payable to fund managers when they deliver healthy returns on their default investment arrangements. Those are funds into which members are automatically placed by the scheme. <BR /> <BR />It makes other changes to the ways in which specific types of pension schemes must comply with the requirements to produce a statement of investment principles.”
“The rule is the first of four sets of regulations relating to pensions that we are considering today. The regulations require the Assembly's approval, and, due to its absence, they have been revoked and replaced on several occasions. Otherwise, they would have expired at the end of the six-month period from the date that they came into operation. As the provisions are somewhat technical, I should, at the outset, explain and perhaps warn that some pensions jargon is inevitable. <BR /> <BR />The rule is the current replacement for the original regulations that came into operation on 6 April 2023. It amends a number of sets of existing regulations, including the Occupational Pension Schemes (Scheme Administration) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There is a bit of a contradiction in what he is saying. If he believes that prayerful and pastoral support should be allowed, why does he not support the amendment? That is all that is being asked for. We want to make sure that the definition of "conversion practice" does not include something as simple as prayer and pastoral support.”
“We need to make sure that the balance is right. That is, I think, what nearly everybody else in the Chamber wants to see: we want to make sure that we do not have those harmful and abusive practices in place and that, if we find that a gap exists in current legislation, we fill it while doing nothing that is inconsistent and not compliant with human rights legislation. That is an entirely appropriate and proportionate step to take. That is why I think that everybody in the House, on the basis of the comments that they have made, will support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />I know that people want to see this done quickly. I cannot commit to a specific timescale because the engagement is what is most important. I look forward to that engagement.”
“The Member seems unsure, but we do. We have freedom of speech and we have freedom of religion, and having those things means that we have the right to say things that others may disagree with. I hear things from others that I disagree with and which I may find objectionable, but that is what living in a free society is all about. It is that we hear and listen and that we express views that may not be to everybody's taste.”
“Of course we need to protect everybody, but we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion.”
“<BR /> <BR />I believe that everyone around the Chamber wants the same outcome.”
“<BR /> <BR />I fully understand that there will be concerns around what any potential ban will include. While it is important that we have protections against coercive, abusive and unsafe practices, it is vital that rights, such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion, are protected. I assure Members that careful consideration will be given during the formulation of policy to a precise definition of the practices involved and the exclusions that may need to be in place if legislation is to progress. Extensive engagement with all those who have an interest will be important during this process. Therefore, further research and engagement are needed to avoid failure to produce a robust and effective ban in the future, and I have asked my officials to scope options for doing so.”
“Actually, the Department has not even consulted on this yet, and if we recognise that this is a significant and complex issue, surely we should at least have that basic consultation and have that information. Yes, we have this report in front of us, but it is very much one side of the overall conversation that needs to take place. The idea that we are ready to go forward with legislation at this point is incorrect. We need to have that greater understanding, we need to hear from everybody, and, importantly, we need to make sure that we get right what the legal definition would be. That is what has tripped up others elsewhere. We will have engagement. It will be a cross-cutting issue, and it will require engagement with other Departments.”
“The development of effective legislation takes time, and the necessary steps must be taken to ensure that the resulting legislation is fit for purpose. It will require further engagement with all those who have an interest in the matter, and it will also require careful formulation of policy proposals and the drafting of precise primary legislation for the consideration of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />That takes me on to a couple of the comments that were made. Mr McGrath said that it is time to get it done and to get on with it, and Sinéad McLaughlin said something similar. Emma Sheerin said that the research had already been carried out.”
“It was undertaken by academics from Ulster University and Queen's, and it explored this issue. I have received the report, which examines several aspects of conversion practices, such as why, how and where those practices happen, who experiences them and their effects. However, I emphasise that the findings and recommendations are those of the authors and do not represent the views of my Department. They are not government policy. They provide evidence, but it is evidence that must be supplemented and built upon as my Department progresses to formulate policy around a potential ban. <BR /> <BR />I can understand the interest to progress legislation on this quickly, however it is a complex and sensitive matter.”
“A Scottish Bill is being prepared, with consultation on policy proposals just completed, and legislation to ban conversion practices is being progressed in the Republic of Ireland. However, each of those jurisdictions has experienced difficulties in arriving at a precise definition of conversion practices and of what a potential ban would include. The matter of freedom of rights is a significant one that also has to be carefully considered, and it is a matter that we have to approach cautiously as we progress policy on this issue. <BR /> <BR />The motion refers to the recent publication, 'A Study of Conversion Practices in Northern Ireland'. My predecessor agreed to award a grant towards funding that research, which was coordinated by a consortium of local LGBT organisations.”
“<BR /> <BR />Work is ongoing in my Department to inform policy proposals in order to bring forward legislation, if that is required. My officials have also worked closely with their counterparts in other jurisdictions to learn from their experience. The extent of the complexity of any potential ban is evidenced by the work in other jurisdictions on this issue. There is, currently, no existing legislation that exclusively bans conversion practices in the UK or the Republic of Ireland. The UK Government have previously committed to bringing in a ban on conversion practices, which will extend to England and Wales, although the timetable for introduction is currently unclear.”
“Therefore, I hope that it follows that all Members will support the amendment to the motion. I believe that that is somewhere where everybody can land and where we can provide that protection but make sure that there is no impingement on freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I hope that we are able to come to a consensus this evening. <BR /> <BR />I want to warn Members that this is a complex and cross-cutting issue. The development of legislation to ban those practices will require careful analysis of all the elements that are involved. Indeed, if we do establish a definition of what conversion practices are, we also need to examine whether there is a gap in the law and how best we can fill that gap in a way that is compliant and consistent with human rights legislation.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the motion. It is fairly clear from the debate that there is support throughout the Chamber for a ban on abusive, coercive, degrading and humiliating conversion practices, some of which we have heard about, regardless of whether those are in a medical, therapeutic, religious or secular setting. However, Members will recognise that this is a hugely complex issue, which is due in part to the ambiguity that exists as to how we define conversion practices. <BR /> <BR />Having listened to all the contributors to the debate, there is a level of consensus. We want to make sure that we do not have those abusive practices but, at the same time, there seems to be wide support for the protection of religious freedom, prayer and pastoral support.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. It appears that we have support from all sides of the House and no dissenting voices, to use your terminology. That was evidenced by the great passion with which Mr McCrossan spoke in his contribution. He was clearly excited about the matter in front of us. Pensions can seem dull at times, as I have said before in this place, but what we have is an important step forward to get younger people to think a bit more about what they need to do in order to prepare for the future. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that there were any points that the House wanted me to respond to or clarifications required, so I will not prolong the debate. I commend the Second Stage of the Bill to the House.”
“I believe that automatic enrolment is something that we can all support. I therefore commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“Regulations made under any of the aforementioned powers in the Bill will be subject to the confirmatory resolution procedure. <BR /> <BR />Clause 2 contains a standard power for the Department to bring clause 1 into operation by statutory rule. Regulations made under clause 1 will amend primary legislation, so I consider it appropriate for those regulations to be subject to the confirmatory resolution procedure in order to allow for Assembly scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />By most standards, automatic enrolment can be considered a success. The measures in the Bill are intended to continue to normalise pension saving among workers, to help lower earners build resilience for retirement, to support individuals in multiple part-time jobs and to simplify automatic enrolment for employers. Workers will, as now, be able to opt out of automatic enrolment.”
“Clause 1 amends the Pensions (No. 2) Act (Northern Ireland) 2008. It inserts a regulation-making power that enables the Department to decrease the age at which an employer has an obligation to enrol or re-enrol job holders automatically in a pension scheme. It also inserts into the 2008 Act a new section 13A that includes a regulation-making power to reduce or repeal the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band and to repeal section 9 for workers without qualifying earnings if the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band is abolished. Any regulations made under the new power in section 13A may also include consequential amendments to, repeals of or revocations of provisions in other Acts as appear to the Department to be required.”
“A public consultation exercise on the draft EQIA was carried out from 18 September until 11 December 2023. Responses were received from five respondents. No adverse impacts were identified. The EQIA final report was published on 26 April. A regulatory impact assessment (RIA) has been carried out on the Bill. The Bill will not impose any costs on businesses or employees at this time. The first year of full implementation of the policy would generate costs to businesses as set out in the RIA, although those costs would be lower if the measures were phased in over a number of years, just as the introduction of automatic enrolment was phased in over a number of years. That is an area that will be revisited as the implementation of the policy is formulated. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is short, containing two clauses.”