Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“For example, in the skills strategy, we will be pushing very heavily the culture of lifelong learning that we need in order to bring people back into work. We will look at what we can do to bring in talent from elsewhere in the UK or further afield. In particular, we will look at creating the digital spine that we need. There are other labour issues and shortages that we want to address, but that is absolutely what I intend the skills strategy to do, which, in turn, will contribute to what we are doing through 10X.”
“We have a number of strategies that underpin it. I have already mentioned the energy strategy. The skills strategy, which I hope to take forward soon, is another one that contributes to the overall goals that we seek to achieve.”
“Absolutely, and 10X is our overarching vision for where we want the economy to be in 10 years, but it is not a vision that sits in isolation.”
“Those are digital, ICT and creative industries; agri-tech; fintech and financial services; advanced manufacturing and engineering; and life and health sciences. <BR /> <BR />A 10X Economy cannot be achieved in isolation. I remain committed to adopting an inclusive approach to delivery. A good example of that is the cross-cutting work that my energy officials are doing with the Department for Infrastructure to start our hydrogen economy and to support Northern Ireland Water to deliver its power of water strategy, which aims to provide a diverse range of zero-carbon power and to produce hydrogen and oxygen at scale. Clearly, as I have already highlighted, it will be impossible to deliver 10X unless my Department is properly resourced in Budget 2022-25.”
“My Department's vision for a 10X Economy sets out a bold and ambitious vision for our economy through a decade of innovation that has benefits for all the people of Northern Ireland. I very much welcome the support and endorsements that have been provided by the business community and from across the Chamber since its launch. That ambition will be realised by focusing on innovation in areas where we have real strengths and by ensuring that the gains from innovation mean something to all businesses, people and places in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the Member has picked up her copy of 'A 10X Economy'. Five priority clusters have been identified in the 10X vision through stakeholder engagement.”
“The Member will be aware that there are certain things that are in my control and certain things that are outside my control. I am operating within the parameters of what has been put in place in the past. I am making sure that Tourism Northern Ireland is doing its job in promoting Northern Ireland. I am speaking constantly to the chief executive of Tourism Ireland about making sure that Northern Ireland gets its fair share, is promoted and is not secondary in any way. That is why, when I was in New York last week at the Tourism Ireland breakfast, I talked about what Northern Ireland has to offer and about everything that we can do to bring more visitors to Northern Ireland.”
“If additional money is given to Tourism Ireland, the implications are that Tourism Ireland can do more work.”
“I want to see improved connections, whether they are by road, rail or whatever else. I have had discussions and was able to meet representatives from an airline last week in New York, and when I was in the Middle East, I was looking at possibilities of having a direct route out there. I am more than happy to ensure that we get more travellers and tourists into Northern Ireland. Direct air links are one of the ways in which we can improve the connectivity of Northern Ireland to ensure that that can happen and that those who are coming in can take advantage of what Northern Ireland has to offer. I want it to be as easy as possible for visitors to come here, whether that is by road, rail, air or ferry, or whatever it might be, and to experience everything that we have.”
“Of course, the funding arrangement is complex. When the Government in the Republic of Ireland want to give more money and more funds to Tourism Ireland, we might not always be in a position to do so. We might be facing budgetary constraints, so our share will go down. Where possible, I have been able to give money to those campaigns through monitoring rounds or when extra money has become available, particularly to those campaigns that promote Northern Ireland abroad. I want to continue to do that. I see the benefit in making sure that everybody around the world knows about Northern Ireland and knows what we have to offer. I want to be able to give that funding and ensure that Northern Ireland can be promoted.”
“Things were going so well yesterday, and Mr O'Dowd was so pleased with the work that I was doing.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have also taken other steps, and we see how Project Stratum has benefited tourism, because more accommodation providers and more experiences and attractions will now have access to that high-speed fibre broadband, which is critical for being connected in the modern world and in ensuring that we can make the most of what we have to offer. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Mrs Erskine will continue, as she has done with me continually, to promote everything that Fermanagh and South Tyrone has to offer. I want everywhere in Northern Ireland to take advantage of what we have to offer to tourists, whether they are from just down the road or from the other side of the world.”
“Mr Storey has something to say about North Antrim as well. <BR /> <BR />First of all, we can continue to develop the product that we have right across Northern Ireland, and we have not stood still. We continue to invest in attractions, experiences and accommodation. You only have to look at the 'Game of Thrones' exhibit, which is a huge asset to Northern Ireland that will pull in many more visitors, to see that. As I said in my opening answer, we spent £8 million this year on promoting Northern Ireland. Part of that was for the domestic market, and I am keen that we continue to look at the tourists who are on our doorstep to make sure that they are experiencing everything that Northern Ireland has to offer.”
“Absolutely. I, of course, encourage more home-grown tourism, and I encourage people in Northern Ireland, once they have visited East Antrim, to visit Fermanagh and South Tyrone”
“In November, I attended the World Travel Market in London, which is the largest business-to-business event in the global tourism calendar, and we supported around 25 companies from Northern Ireland that were participating. Last month, I attended Expo 2022 in Dubai and engaged with industry partners who were participating in Tourism Ireland's 2022 Middle East sales mission. Last week, I was in the US to engage with around 20 top US travel industry and media guests at a Tourism Ireland breakfast round table. I will continue to do all that I can to promote tourism in Northern Ireland.”
“By the end of this financial year, my Department will have invested over £12 million through Tourism NI to consistently and heavily promote Northern Ireland as a leading tourism destination across multiple campaigns and initiatives. I was pleased to secure an additional £8 million in the January monitoring round to support tourism marketing campaigns in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Great Britain and Europe, including a comprehensive cooperative marketing campaign with airlines to highlight the ease of access to Northern Ireland via direct flights. <BR /> <BR />I have been pleased to engage in working with Tourism Ireland to showcase Northern Ireland on the world stage.”
“<BR /> <BR />I continue to have discussions with the universities about that, but, as I said in answer to other questions, a lot of it comes down to funding, whether we are prepared to look at how we fund those places and what role the Executive are prepared to play in that.”
“Of course, the maximum student number has risen in recent years, and it increased from 22,844 in 2018-19 to 25,255 last year. However, the number has not kept up with demographic changes, and I understand the difficulties that we will face if we do not see a change. In many cases, we will just export more of our young people. I do not want that to happen at all; I want those who want to stay here to be able to do so. We have to recognise that many are determined leavers, and they will go to Great Britain. However, I want to see more of our young people studying here. Indeed, I want more students to come here from outside Northern Ireland and from Great Britain in particular. The MaSN cap would not affect them.”
“That is one of the single greatest challenges in Northern Ireland. If we do not invest in skills, we will not achieve everything that we set out in our 10X Economy vision. That is why we need the funding in place to support it.”
“It would be a very difficult situation for universities and students if the proposed draft Budget settlement for my Department were to become the final settlement. It would not be good for the universities in what they could provide, and it would not be good for students in the support that would be made available to them. The draft Budget settlement has consequences. I am well aware of those. <BR /> <BR />When the Finance Minister presented the draft Budget to the Executive, it was the first time since 2007 that we did not put the economy and skills at the forefront of what we are doing in Northern Ireland. I have a vision of Northern Ireland being among the elite small economies of the world. If we are to have that, we need to make sure that the funding is in place to address our skills.”
“I would like to do an awful lot more on skills and further and higher education, but I am limited by the Budget settlement that I receive. Unfortunately, under the Finance Minister's draft Budget — the Member is shaking her head — I would have to cut back on some of the things that I am already doing, never mind doing some of the other things that we believe need to be in place in order for us to have the type of education system that we want in Northern Ireland. To go even further than that and to compensate for those changes will require additional funding. Of course, it would change everything if that funding were made available.”
“Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do that, because I do not know what the final Budget settlement will be.”
“That is highly likely, unless a decision is taken to further subsidise Northern Ireland student loan products by supplementing them with grant support, something that the Executive would need to decide and that could not be achieved within my Department’s draft budget. <BR /> <BR />Indeed, the Finance Minister’s proposed budget settlement for my Department may leave me with little choice but to consider further options, including reducing teaching grant funding to our local universities, which could lead to a reduction in places available for Northern Ireland students wishing to study in Northern Ireland, alongside any changes that might have to be applied to Northern Ireland student loan products as a result of the changes announced in England that will apply there from 2023-24.”
“The most significant reform announced by the UK Government is in relation to the repayment terms associated with student loan borrowing for English domiciles. That is intended to significantly reduce the likelihood of English students not repaying their student loan. It is of significance, as funding for Northern Ireland loan products is provided by Treasury and is directly linked to the write-offs incurred in the English system. The English changes may, therefore, force the need for the repayment terms of student loans for Northern Ireland domiciles to be amended to bring the level of Northern Ireland loan write-offs down to the future forecast level in England from 2023-24.”
“There has been staff turnover, but I have been assured that we have in place the people whom we need to promote Northern Ireland, to continue Invest NI's good record of work and to bring people for visits to Northern Ireland that will develop into investment opportunities. <BR /> <BR />I take the opportunity to thank the staff, as we come to the end of the mandate, for the work that they have done, often under difficult circumstances. I put on record my thanks to Mel, the interim chief executive, for the work that he does. Invest NI continually meets its targets, and, across the world, it shines the light on Northern Ireland. I had the opportunity to meet some of our fantastic staff based in North America, the Middle East, London and here. They all deserve our thanks for the work that they are doing.”
“I do not want someone to be googling the conversations that we have here and getting a negative view about Londonderry and the north-west. There is much that is good happening there and much good work that Invest NI has done and will continue to do.”
“We have had this conversation, a number of times, about the review of Invest NI. The Member knows full well that Invest NI will look at all that: investment west of the Bann, outside Belfast and right across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I want to give the Member some good news. Over the last number of weeks, I have had the opportunity, in Northern Ireland, to speak to some foreign direct investors. Invest NI had taken those investors to the north-west and shown them what it has to offer. They are talking very positively about the north-west. Invest NI is doing that work and bringing those investors to the area. I think that we will see good news announcements coming out of that. <BR /> <BR />I gently encourage the Member to talk up her constituency and city.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member asked in particular about the areas of interest. We had conversations with investors and government officials in the US about the 10X Economy — those technologies and clusters that we have done really well in, are global leaders in or have the potential to be global leaders in. Those areas of interest are fintech, life and health sciences, and advanced manufacturing. That is why I was so pleased to be able to go out and explain what we have to offer.”
“Many new markets are opening up to us, and Northern Ireland companies are investing in them and exporting to them right across the world, but the United States remains an incredibly important market, with billions of pounds' worth of trade and many companies from the United States coming into Northern Ireland. I had the opportunity to meet a number of investors. As a result of our trip, we have provided reassurance to those who are going to invest, and I believe that we will see job announcements coming out of that. Importantly, those are not just, as some would like to say, in the Belfast area. They are right across Northern Ireland, because around 70% of jobs that are created through the work of Invest NI are outside of Belfast, and it is important to keep that in mind.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Member said, there is an issue with the land in Enniskillen. I want to make sure that we make use of all the sites that we have, and, where there are potential investment opportunities, we will exploit those. Invest NI is more than willing to bring interested investors to those sites where they are appropriate and where they line up to our ambitions. I encourage the Member to respond to Sir Michael Lyons and his call for evidence, and she can make sure that her particular viewpoint is heard.”
“First of all, I completely disagree with the Member about the so-called failure of Invest NI. You only need to look at the track record of Invest NI right across Northern Ireland and the jobs that it has created through direct assistance and through the many other schemes that have been put in place to help. I have been on trade missions and met companies locally that have all benefited right across Northern Ireland through not just the direct financial assistance and jobs promoted category but others as well. What the Member has said is not right. However, it is an independent review, and I have said to Sir Michael Lyons that I want him to investigate everything that Invest NI does to see how that can be improved on, and I am very open to any recommendations that he brings back.”
“The Member is absolutely right to raise the issue of connectivity, because, time and time again, we are told of, and the research demonstrates to us, the importance of good connectivity and how it helps increase business efficiency and helps create more jobs, and more sustainable jobs. I am absolutely committed to ensuring that my Department does all that it can to improve that connectivity. <BR /> <BR />Project Stratum has been exceptionally helpful. The Member's constituency benefited more than any other, with 13,000 properties benefiting, and I hope that those businesses are taking advantage of that. However, I understand that mobile connectivity is also important, so any way that I can stand ready to help, she can be assured that I will do that.”
“That has included support that was offered through the economic recovery innovation grant (ERIG) and the productive investment capital grant (PICG) to invest in innovation, new technologies and processes to improve efficiency and resilience. <BR /> <BR />Notable recent investments include an 88-job project with local manufacturer Crust and Crumb bakery and support for a 210-job project with Mallaghan Engineering.”
“Those offers, consisting of over £12·4 million of assistance, will help secure over £61·4 million of total investment and support the creation of nearly 600 jobs. <BR /> <BR />The financial support that Invest NI has provided in the Fermanagh and South Tyrone area includes not only direct financial support for companies through grants but support for companies that are developing overseas capacity through programmes such as Going Dutch and Grow Beyond, as well as COVID response schemes such as the digital selling capability grant (DSCG) and the process and organisational improvement grant (POIG). My Department was able to provide additional funding through its economic recovery action plan in 2021 to ensure that more businesses in the area were able to benefit from support.”
“Invest NI works closely with businesses throughout Fermanagh and South Tyrone to support their growth ambitions whilst also promoting the area as a potential location for inward investors. Invest NI also works closely with Tourism NI and local tourist accommodation providers to realise the economic potential of the area's outstanding natural beauty. Tourism NI has allocated funding of over £811,000 to tourism projects in the Fermanagh and South Tyrone constituency through a number of investment programmes since 2018-19. <BR /> <BR />Over the last three years for which full performance information is available — 2018-19 to 2020-21 — Invest NI made over 560 offers of support to businesses in the Member's area.”
“Of course, it is nonsense to suggest that the trade union Bill that he brought forward would in any way have prevented the situation. It is absolute nonsense, again, from the Member to suggest that. The one problem that we have right now is that the employment law that we have has not been followed. I am more than happy to look at what else we might be able to do to make sure that our employment law is completely fit for purpose, but let us make it very clear: the responsibility lies with the company to follow its obligations. That has not been done, and that is the root of the problem.”
“Although supply chain issues are the responsibility of the Agriculture Department, we are working together to see how we can ensure that the capacity that is required is there. My Department and I will do everything that we can to get that capacity up to where it was before as soon as possible.”
“I understand the frustration of not just the Member but the haulier he has spoken to. I am aware of those difficulties. I do not want to tread on the responsibilities of other Ministers. That having been said, I have had engagement already with what might be considered alternative providers in order to see what we can do to address some of the hold-ups that we are seeing. I know that that will have consequences. <BR /> <BR />I also know that it is a frustration for the Member and the haulier involved. I am dealing with the employment law side of the situation because that is primarily my responsibility, but I recognise the impact that it is having on the wider economy.”
“P&O knew six weeks ago the difficult situation that it was going to send that security firm into, yet it was not prepared to give its staff any notice ahead of time. It has acted in a reprehensible way, and there needs to be consequences for that. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked me what that action will be. That depends. I do not know what level of public funding the company gets at the minute. She will understand that we have not been able to have that engagement with P&O yet, but we will take whatever action we can. I hope that she hears the strength of my words today. I am prepared to do anything that I can to support the workers and to ensure that no company thinks that it can get away with this again in the future.”
“I hope that I was clear in my answer to Mr O'Dowd. I reiterate that, if it is a role for the UK Government, I will strongly support them in taking action, and, if there is a role for us to play, I will be more than happy to do that as well. If P&O gets public money and continues to act in that way, and if there is a role for us to play, I will be keen to look at all the options available, because it has acted in an absolutely disgraceful way. <BR /> <BR />What irks me even more is the fact that P&O knew a long time ago that this would happen. Six weeks ago, it engaged a security firm to come onto the boats in the event of trouble. The employees of that security firm were told to ensure that they had their utility belts and handcuffs.”
“The Member is right to raise those issues. As I said in my answer to Mr Dunne, there have to be ways to protect a strategic asset such as that. <BR /> <BR />On the question of redundancies, discussions may go on about which employment law applies here or whether the redundancies are covered by maritime law. The ferry in question, Larne to Cairnryan, spends all its time sailing between UK ports in UK waters, however, so it is likely that Northern Ireland or Great Britain employment law will apply. Even if Jersey law were to apply, there would still be redundancy requirements. It is absolutely right that people be held to account to the law of the jurisdictions in which they operate.”
“Of course, I want to see the sustainability of the supply chains. That is why I am an opponent of the Northern Ireland protocol, which has caused so many of the issues and problems that we have seen over the past year. It is contributing to the increase in costs: the Road Haulage Association estimated that anywhere between 10% and 25% has been added to costs. If the Member wants to see a more secure supply chain between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I hope that he will join us in our efforts to dump the Irish Sea border.”
“I am more than happy to confirm that I requested a meeting with RMT this morning. Unfortunately, it was not able to attend that meeting. I am more than happy to engage with any of the trade unions that have an interest in the issue. There is no barrier whatsoever to doing that.”
“I am very keen to see a free port and to ensure that we harness the opportunities that can come from that.”
“I am very keen to explore having a free port in Larne. That is another opportunity for us. Ultimately, my aim is to see much more competition not just between Larne and Scotland but, indeed, between all ports in Northern Ireland and Scotland. The cost of travel between Northern Ireland and Scotland is very high, because we do not have the same competition that you might see in, for example, the English Channel. We need to do all that we can to increase competition. <BR /> <BR />I have been pleased to work with councillors and MSPs in Scotland to look at the A75 and the A77, because improving those roads will be key to getting more traffic there. That will help to make the ports more sustainable for transport — passenger transport in particular. We should explore all the options.”
“Yes. I have outlined the volume of freight that comes in via those ferries. That will inevitably have a knock-on effect. We are seeing additional sailings by other companies and some of the hole being filled in that way. I will work very closely with the Department for Transport, and I get regular updates from it. I will work with the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs as well on those issues to make sure that we do everything that we can to ensure that that supply comes in. <BR /> <BR />That brings up a further question about what role and responsibilities a private company should have when it is responsible for a strategic national asset like that and then goes ahead and closes it down at a moment's notice. We will have to look at that as well.”
“The Member has thrown me off a little bit by complimenting me, but I appreciate his words. I think that that was because we are all united on what has happened. P&O's treatment of its staff, especially those who served the company for so long, is reprehensible and disgusting. It is right that we have strong words. I completely agree with him that we need strong actions as well. Some of the financial support provided to that company in the past was via the Treasury or elsewhere in HMG. It is right that they look into that. Certainly, I am more than happy to look at what support has been given and how we can ensure that we do not support companies that disregard employment law in that way.”
“It is absolutely right for the Member to raise the issue, and P&O needs to be aware of its need to follow all the regulations that may be in place on not only the standard of training required but minimum wage and other entitlements for staff.”
“It absolutely is the case that we have had competent staff on ferries not only between Northern Ireland and Scotland but, I am sure, right around the UK and Ireland, who have had many years — in some cases, decades — of experience. I want to make sure that any staff who are brought on and agency workers who are hired to do the job are properly trained. We need to make sure that no corners are cut and that they have all the necessary experience. Not only is what is being done a huge disservice to existing customers and staff, but it is imperative that we look out for the safety of those who will travel with P&O in the future.”
“I will touch on the fire and rehire issue. Yes, we will look at employment law in the next mandate, and we want to address issues that can come from that. However, let us be clear: we have employment law in Northern Ireland now, and that is what seems to have been breached. Let us not in any way allow anybody to get away with this on the basis of what may or may not be in our law right now. It is absolutely the case that what is in our law right now appears to me to have been breached. <BR /> <BR />I have not spoken directly to the Consumer Council at this time. I am more than happy to do that. However, it is well positioned to hear directly from consumers, and I strongly encourage those who have been affected to get in touch with the Consumer Council so that they know their rights and know how they can proceed.”
“I will address the Member's first point. Given that the Member has been in the Chamber two or three times when I have addressed this issue before, he will be aware that we had only two years in the Chamber to pass legislation. He knows the pressures that were on our time in regard to employment law. We passed the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. I would have liked to go further. However, I have committed that we will do that in the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />I have requested a meeting with P&O. I have said that I am willing to work with it. I have met the Labour Relations Agency and suggested that it could be an intermediary on the issue. I have not yet received a response.”