Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“Of course. That is often missed by those who take a different view. I am proudly pro-life and see that as being supportive of women and children. That is why I hold to those views. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on another comment that Mr Tennyson made. He said that I had refused to meet any LGBT groups: that is not the case. I have taken a similar approach to meeting all the expert panel advisory groups. I have had criticism from across the House when it comes to anti-poverty, disability and other issues. I am more than happy to meet to discuss those issues. I hope that he will recognise that, on some of the issues that we are talking about directly, I have offered to meet him. I am genuinely interested and concerned about what were previously called "conversion therapies" but have been extended and are now called "conversion practices".”
“The words in front of us today in amendment No 1 simply state that we should recognise the ruling of the Supreme Court, which, of course, has implications, because it recognises the need to distinguish between gender recognition and biological sex when it comes to anti-discrimination legislation. That is fair and straightforward. As Mr Kingston said, there has been an attempt to mock, denigrate and demonise those who hold a different view. We should move forward in a different way.”
“That is what the amendment states, but what do we hear from Members in the Chamber today, including Sinéad McLaughlin? We hear that the amendment aims to "stir up division" and that this is a "culture war". That is inappropriate language. There should be the ability in this place to disagree on some of the issues without some of the accusations that were flying towards this side of the Chamber. I think that there has largely been compassion and empathy as we have conducted the debate. I do not think that, to use Mr Tennyson's word, there has been an attempt to "weaponise" the issues.”
“Mr Carroll said that we were simply following the lead of other political leaders, be it Keir Starmer, Donald Trump or Nigel Farage: that is an attempt to demonise people who disagree with him. Unfortunately, we heard the same from Sinéad McLaughlin. Hers were very disappointing comments. The amendment standing in the name of Mr Kingston and Mr Bradley:”
“The Member who proposed that amendment knows that, following unanimous support at the Executive on the matter, it will not succeed. <BR /> <BR />Let me now turn to some of the comments that, I believe, are worthy of addressing. I agree with the Member who proposed the motion that decisions should be based on fairness and evidence. That is absolutely right and is the way in which we want to approach such issues. Mr Kingston made an important point that I will return to later, which is that many people were mocked and denigrated for holding the view that has now been confirmed by the Supreme Court ruling. <BR /> <BR />That takes me to another issue that a number of Members raised.”
“I am happy that we lower the temperature, but I will not have my integrity impugned. I treat everybody in the House with the respect to which they are entitled, regardless of gender. I hope that the Member would know me well enough at this stage to know that that is the case. <BR /> <BR />Let me turn to the amendments. Amendment No 1 highlights the recent Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman. First and foremost, that is a judgment that I welcome and that, I believe, brings clarity. I have therefore tasked officials with analysing the areas in my Department's responsibility that will be affected by the judgement. In due course, I will announce how that will manifest itself. Amendment No 2 concerns the supply of puberty blockers to those under the age of 18.”
“I find that a despicable comment. I gave way to Mr O'Toole because of the specific point that we were on. I anticipated the question that, I believed, the Member was going to ask previously, and I asked her to give me time. It is absolutely disgraceful what she is insinuating about me, and I think we should lower the temperature —”
“That is exactly what I am coming on to. I want to see what is possible, what is sensible and what will actually make a difference. I hope that the more sensible Members of the House can understand how significant and contentious some of the issues are.”
“For each one of those, you will have difficulty defining exactly what some of those terms are and what the implications are. You are talking about changes that will be felt across health, education and other aspects of our society. So, no, I am not prepared to take what the expert advisory panel report has produced and put it into a strategy, because it will not be realistic. It will not get Executive approval. In fact, one reason why Mr Carroll tabled his amendment is that there is no agreement in the Executive for the approach here, which talks about so-called gender-affirming healthcare services for all ages. All of those recommendations demonstrate why it is simply impossible to immediately produce a strategy that will get support from all Executive colleagues.”
“Just give me a second to explain. Give me the opportunity to explain what I am saying because they are not inconsequential proposals. Some of them, which came from the expert advisory panel report, are exceptionally controversial and divisive, and it would be very difficult to get political agreement on some of them. <BR /> <BR />Let me give an example of some of the issues that were mentioned in the expert advisory panel report. There should be:”
“I will be moving on to that point and will deal with it in more detail, but is the Member saying that it should be published today? Is it today, next week or is it a few weeks? What does it mean? It reminds me that Mr Honeyford is in his place. When it comes to Casement Park, he always says, "Just get it built. Just get it done", but, of course, we cannot just say that we are getting on with it and getting it done, because there are questions —”
“I understand the calls to bring forward the strategy. However, we need to ensure that any potential strategy is properly thought through. The motion calls for:”
“Of course, final decisions on the content of the strategy will be subject to Executive agreement. I intend to make an announcement shortly on when work will commence on the further development of a sexual orientation strategy, including a timetable for bringing it to the Executive.”
“<BR /> <BR />Following consideration of the work previously carried out to develop each of the social inclusion strategies, alongside unprecedented pressures on resources across Departments, I decided to move forward on the development of the strategies on a phased basis, and work is now well progressed on the anti-poverty and disability strategies. It is true to say that much work has been carried out to date on the sexual orientation strategy. However, as that was undertaken in the previous mandate, it will be necessary to review and update that work before seeking approval from other Departments and Ministers. We are all aware of how the budgetary and legislative landscape has changed since the previous mandate, and that includes the recent Supreme Court judgement, which I will come to later.”
“Members will be aware that work was commenced in 2020 by the Department for Communities, on behalf of the Executive, on four social inclusion strategies — anti-poverty, disability, gender equality and sexual orientation — in order to progress the options proposed in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. The motion notes the work of the expert advisory panel. The panel was established in October 2020, with the objective of making recommendations on the themes and key actions that the sexual orientation strategy should address. The panel's report was published in 2021.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. <BR /> <BR />When I took up office in this Department, I said that I would support and champion a safe and welcoming society, and that requires a commitment to true equality and freedom for all. Therefore, let me be unequivocal: there is no place for discrimination in our society. Every individual, regardless of their background, identity or beliefs, deserves to be respected and to have the opportunity to live free from hatred or exclusion. That principle is non-negotiable and lies at the heart of a just society. <BR /> <BR />Let me turn to the sexual orientation strategy.”
“I am grateful to the Committee for its support, and I commend the motion to the House.”
“They are Ulster Supported Employment Limited, the Northern Ireland Museums Council and the North/South language bodies. <BR /> <BR />Once the regulations are made, there are further steps that my Department and the specified public bodies will need to complete. First, my Department will consult the relevant bodies on the guidance to be issued. The specified bodies will then consult on the ways in which products can be obtained, where they will be located and the types of period products that will be available. Following that, the specified bodies will publish a written statement on the arrangements that are to be put in place. My officials have been liaising with the arm's-length bodies on how the regulations will be implemented, and I am pleased to report that the Department's public bodies have fully embraced the scheme.”
“Under section 2 of the Act, I propose to specify the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland, the Local Government Staff Commission, the Northern Ireland Library Authority, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, the Northern Ireland Local Government Officers' Superannuation Committee, National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland, Sport Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People and the Commissioner for Older People for Northern Ireland. That means that those public bodies will make free period products available to staff and visitors on their premises. Some bodies that fall within the remit of my Department are not specified in the draft regulations, as they did not meet the definition of a "public service body" as set out in section 9 of the Act.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. Today, I seek the Assembly's approval of the draft Period Products (Department for Communities Specified Public Service Bodies) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2025. The introduction of the draft regulations is required under the Period Products (Free Provision) Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. <BR /> <BR />The draft regulations mark another important step in the journey to making universal access to period products a reality and complement similar legislation from other Departments.”
“It is not a matter for the House or the Executive; the consent is given by the Minister, and that consent is given by way of communication between the Secretary of State and the relevant Minister. <BR /> <BR />I am grateful for the widespread support that we have in the Chamber and commend the motion to the House.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank Members for their contributions to the debate. On balance, the provisions of the Bill that engage the LCM should extend to Northern Ireland. Agreeing to the LCM will allow important provisions to be enacted across the UK. I am grateful for the support that we have had across the Chamber and from the Committees. <BR /> <BR />One issue, in particular, has been raised again: that of Northern Ireland's employment legislation being added to the list of relevant legislation. Just to be clear in response to Kellie Armstrong's comment, changes that include Northern Ireland devolved legislation will require the consent of the relevant Northern Ireland Department or Departments.”
“While I seek to avoid using the LCM process where possible, in all the circumstances, it seems sensible to secure the benefits of the Bill for employees in Northern Ireland by agreeing to an LCM in respect of the Bill. The other Executive Ministers who are party to this LCM agree that, in these circumstances, an LCM is the best approach. The use of this procedure in this case should not be seen as a precedent or as an indication of how I intend to proceed in the future in this area. I am very aware of the importance of the Assembly's role in considering legislation and, in particular, the value of the Committee's scrutiny role.”
“The amendment to the Procurement Act 2023 will provide for the protection of workers in outsourcing arrangements by reserved public bodies operating in Northern Ireland, and the Bill has been amended to ensure that the powers enabling the Secretary of State to increase the remit of the Fair Work Agency by adding to the list of relevant labour market legislation contained in Part 1 of schedule 7 to the Bill will rely on the consent of the relevant Northern Ireland Department where they relate to Northern Ireland devolved legislation. <BR /> <BR />The proposals are not expected to have direct financial implications for the Northern Ireland block grant. At a UK level, consolidating functions under the Fair Work Agency is expected to generate efficiencies, although specific savings have not yet been quantified.”
“It will ensure that employees here receive the same enhanced SSP entitlements as their counterparts in Great Britain. That uniformity will help to prevent inequalities in worker protections and will minimise administrative burdens for employers operating across the UK. Incorporating the proposed abolition of the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority and the establishment of the Fair Work Agency avoids the need for a separate enforcement body in Northern Ireland, which would require significant time and resources to establish.”
“The Procurement Act 2023 is UK-wide; however, as procurement policy is a transferred matter, Northern Ireland has opted out of the Act for key policy matters that do not relate to trade. It is, therefore, proposed that clause 30 will apply where reserved bodies are operating in Northern Ireland; where there is joint procurement between a transferred Northern Ireland body and a UK reserved body where the UK body is in the lead role; or where a transferred Northern Ireland body uses a framework set up by a reserved body or uses a reserved central procurement authority. Clause 30 will not apply to transferred Northern Ireland public bodies except for the previously mentioned circumstances. <BR /> <BR />In summary, agreeing the LCM will bring benefits to Northern Ireland.”
“Schedule 7, at paragraph 35, gives powers enabling the Secretary of State to increase the remit of the Fair Work Agency in the future on a range of labour market and employment legislation by adding to the list of relevant labour market legislation contained in Part 1 of schedule 7, however paragraph 35(3) requires that any such changes that include Northern Ireland devolved legislation will require the consent of the relevant Northern Ireland Department or Departments. <BR /> <BR />Clause 30 of the Bill seeks to amend the Procurement Act 2023 by allowing a UK Minister to produce and publish a code of practice in relation to the protection of workers in outsourcing arrangements by public bodies to ensure that workers are treated no less favourably than workers of the contracting authority.”
“Schedule 11 provides transitional and saving provisions, with paragraph 19 of that schedule providing that any of the amendments to the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 made in paragraphs 17 to 23 of schedule 10 do not affect any provision of that Act relating to the operation of the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1977. That is a simple saving provision that ensures that the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 remains operable and so maintains the Agricultural Wages Board for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Schedule 7, at paragraphs 8 to 12, lists the Northern Ireland legislation that is subject to enforcement by the Fair Work Agency under Part 5 of the Bill. That relates to legislation in respect of statutory sick pay.”
“The Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority is a non-departmental public body that is sponsored by the Home Office and operates UK-wide to tackle worker exploitation, tax evasion and health and safety negligence. In Northern Ireland, its operations are funded and managed through DAERA. The authority currently employs two Northern Ireland-based enforcement officers, and it is understood that the functions currently carried out in Northern Ireland by the authority will not change on the ground.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 145 will amend the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 for the purposes of abolishing the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority (GLAA) and transferring its functions to the new Fair Work Agency.”
“That means that the majority of people who get SSP will continue to get the flat rate. For those who already earn less than the flat rate, however, the percentage-based option ensures that no one will receive more in SSP than they would have earned through wages. <BR /> <BR />Enforcement and dispute resolution is currently carried out by HMRC on a UK-wide basis. Part 5 of the Bill proposes to transfer SSP enforcement and dispute resolution to the new Fair Work Agency. In Northern Ireland, that change will ensure that local workers will benefit from the same level of enforcement and support as workers in Great Britain. DFC will retain overarching policy responsibility for SSP and maintain an advisory role to support the Fair Work Agency.”
“Currently, employees must wait three days before they can receive SSP payments. By enabling SSP to start from the first day of sickness, the Bill ensures that employees are supported from the moment that they are unable to work, which will address gaps in financial support during short-term illnesses and reduce financial hardship for employees. <BR /> <BR />Clause 13 will remove the lower earnings limit so that all employees, regardless of their income, will be eligible for SSP. That change will ensure that low-income workers, who are often most vulnerable to financial hardship during illness, are not left without support when they need it most. To ensure fairness, SSP payments will be set at whichever is lower between the flat weekly rate of £118·75 and 80% of the employee's weekly wages.”
“Following requests from each of the relevant Ministers, I agreed to include the provisions of the Bill that fell to each of their Departments in the LCM in order to maintain parity with Great Britain on those matters. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to the provisions of the Bill that fall within the scope of the LCM. Clauses 12 and 13 relate to statutory sick pay (SSP), which is the minimum that an employer must pay an eligible employee if they are unable to work owing to illness or injury. To be eligible, an employee must have average weekly earnings at or above the lower earnings limit, which is currently £6,500 a year. SSP is paid from the fourth day of absence. The standard rate for 2025-26 is £118·75, and it is paid for 28 weeks. Clause 12 will remove the waiting period for SSP.”
“The Employment Rights Bill was introduced in the House of Commons on 10 October 2024. The Bill aims to improve workplace conditions, extend employee protections, modernise employment laws, enhance existing provisions and introduce new rights. It also allows for the establishment of a single, UK-wide enforcement body, to be known as the Fair Work Agency, which will bring together existing enforcement functions from across a number of regimes. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is substantial, but the legislative consent motion (LCM) includes only the small number of provisions that affect devolved matters. The provisions fall under the remits of the Department for Communities, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, the Department for the Economy and the Department of Finance.”
“I am grateful for the support across the House, and I commend the Bill to the House.”
“If the Bill attains Royal Assent, secondary legislation will be required to implement and commence the proposals of the Act. It is expected that the first regulations relating to appeals against liability orders will be subject to the confirmatory procedure, thereby ensuring enhanced scrutiny through debate in the Assembly. Members may also note that a regulatory impact assessment was not prepared as the Bill will have minimal impact on businesses, charities, social economy enterprises or voluntary bodies. <BR /> <BR />The measures in the Bill will substantially speed up the time that it takes for the CMS to initiate its strongest enforcement powers and will improve the CMS in its role to secure child maintenance for children. Therefore, I commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“I am pleased to move the Final Stage of the Child Support Enforcement Bill. I thank the Committee and Members across the Chamber who have given their support to the Bill and its progression through the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will enable the Child Maintenance Service (CMS) to make an administrative liability order without requiring an application to the Magistrates' Court. The existing court-based liability order process takes, on average, 22 weeks. It is estimated that the new administrative liability order process could be substantially shortened to six weeks.”
“We will continue to put in place all the measures that we can to support those who are most in need, help people prevent themselves from falling into poverty, help people who find themselves in poverty and make sure that we have routes available for people to exit poverty. <BR /> <BR />The Government are making our task more difficult. They are also making their own job more difficult in the long term. That is why we will continue to speak with one voice from this Chamber to make sure that our views are heard and put forward a better path for us. <BR /> <BR />We are better off supporting the amendment in the name of Mr Kingston. I look forward to support from the House.”
“Unfortunately, what they are trying to do in the short term is simply to balance the books and make their numbers add up, by which I mean that they are trying to make sure that their sums are as they should be, regardless of the longer-term costs and other consequences. We all want to see more people who can work get into work and to see a reduction in the welfare bill. The way in which the Government are going about it, however, is completely wrong, and I will continue to make my case to them. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, I was able to send the draft anti-poverty strategy document to my Executive colleagues. I look forward to their considering that document and hope that it can go out to public consultation soon and be adopted.”
“I do not see how anybody in the House with any honesty can wholeheartedly support the SDLP amendment, which takes out the opportunities that we have to increase revenue and make sure that we have a more balanced system but states that we should be taking action that, people know, we are simply not in a position to take at this time. I hope that that clarifies my position on the matter. <BR /> <BR />I assure Members that I will continue to beat the drum for Northern Ireland. I will continue to make the case, along with Executive colleagues, for the better way that we suggest. I believe that we have a better way of doing what the Government are trying to do.”
“I do not believe that the line in the DUP amendment about tackling fraud and abuse should be attributed to disabled people any more than it should be to the global corporations that are mentioned or the potential sales tax for online marketplaces. I have made it very clear in everything that I have said about welfare fraud and error that it is not about targeting people who need benefits or individuals who make honest mistakes. Rather, it is about making sure that we target those who are deliberately defrauding the system. Those who are not doing anything wrong should not have anything to worry about. <BR /> <BR />All in all, the DUP amendment very much strengthens what is in the Alliance motion.”
“I do not think that it is offensive at all, because I am not linking the two in any way. I am not saying that those who are entitled to disability benefits are in any way responsible for defrauding the system. Rather, I am saying that this is a package of overall measures that we should be taking in order to increase the amount of money that we have to spend. I have said regularly that we need to get the right money to the right people at the right time. <BR /> <BR />It is a disgrace that there are people who are deliberately defrauding the system. I am talking not about people who wrongly fill out a box but about those who are deliberately defrauding our system and taking money that should be going to the very people about whom the Member is talking.”
“There are additional measures that the UK Government can take. I do not believe that we are removing anything from the spirit of the Alliance motion. I hope that the Alliance Party and other Members can look at what is being proposed and say, "There are some realistic measures that can be looked at". I do not think that the DUP amendment takes anything away from the motion at all.”
“That is fair, but what need to be highlighted today are the additional measures that have been included in the DUP amendment, which, I believe, take nothing away from the Alliance motion. These are things that all of us in the House should be calling for:”
“There has been some talk about tax increases for the superwealthy, which is something that the SDLP has removed from the motion in its amendment. The DUP amendment states that such tax increases should be explored, but:”
“The other reason that I oppose the SDLP amendment is because it leaves out some of the things that the DUP amendment and the Alliance motion call for.”
“I am sorry, but I cannot pledge that. I cannot promise that I will be able to work out the cost and give a blanket guarantee that we will be able to mitigate the reductions. I will be upfront and honest with people. If Mr Durkan or any of his colleagues were in my position, they would have to do the same. That is the most honest thing that we can say.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is worthwhile for us to have these debates, to take such action as we have taken and to continue to make our views on the issue known. I think that there is consensus in the Chamber, although two amendments to the motion have been proposed. I will not be in a position to agree with the SDLP amendment. I understand that there is a bit of politics in there, yes, but I have been upfront and honest about the Assembly's financial capability. Despite Sinéad McLaughlin's earlier comments, the SDLP amendment very clearly calls on me:”
“We should have the ambition to take people off welfare benefits if they do not need them and to get them into work, because we know that there will be numerous benefits as a result of doing that, including a reduction in the welfare bill, more money going into the Treasury and a better quality of life for everyone involved. <BR /> <BR />That young individual was so pleased at what he was able to achieve, but it took some help. That is what we should be doing to reduce the welfare bill. That is what we should be doing to help people. The Government have taken completely the wrong approach. There are those in the Chamber who celebrated the election of a Labour Government. I think that we are all surprised at the action that the Government have taken, and I hope that they will see sense.”
“I have met people from all walks of life. An experience that has stayed with me, which I think will stay with me the longest, is meeting people who are involved in the Job Start programme. They are people who never had the opportunity to work or were never given help to get into work. Some of them have disabilities or neurodivergent issues that had previously prevented them getting into work. I remember speaking to one young individual who told me that he thought that, because of his autism, he would never have a job. His parents thought that he would never be able to get employment. With the help that we were able to give him through that programme, however, he is now thriving in his employment. That is the type of help that we should give to people and the type of ambition that we should have for them.”