Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“It is important that we build the homes that are needed where they are needed. We look at that sort of accommodation. The Member will be aware in particular of what is provided for over-55s. I am not sure whether he is quite in that —.”
“They will also exclude the sale of flats and leasehold properties and the resale to former leaseholders of sold flats that have been re-acquired by the Housing Executive and exclude time spent as a secure tenant in a registered housing association dwelling for the purposes of the calculation of discount.”
“It is for that reason that I recently agreed that the Housing Executive should launch a public consultation on several amendments that it has proposed to its sales scheme. Following the consultation, any changes to the scheme will require the Department's approval. <BR /> <BR />Some of the amendments are about the sale of adapted or accessible dwellings that have been subject to major adaptations and the extension of the duration of the option to purchase provision from 10 years to 20 years so that social housing providers will have first refusal for up to 20 years post sale should the property owner decide to sell the property.”
“<BR /> <BR />The housing sales scheme has undoubtedly been successful in providing people in Northern Ireland who might not otherwise have been able to buy with an affordable route into homeownership. While it has changed the tenure of those homes, the sales scheme has offered and still offers a valuable opportunity for those living in the social sector to acquire and remain in their home. House sales completed through the scheme have steeply declined since 2011, albeit with a small increase in recent years, so we are no longer talking about the many thousands of homes sold during the early years of the scheme. However, while I believe that the Housing Executive's statutory house sales scheme should be retained, I acknowledge that some changes may be necessary to protect certain types of social housing for future generations.”
“In cash terms, it is the largest-ever allocation of budget to the programme. I am also taking forward a fundamental review of both grant support and design standards to ensure that we deliver the most appropriate value-for-money homes and more social homes per pound from the Department's budget. It is imperative that the Executive also commit to doing everything that they can to ensure that sufficient budget can be allocated to the social housing development programme as early as possible in order to give us the best chance of achieving our Programme for Government target. I have sought a commitment from the Executive to provide sufficient funds for that programme in line with their Programme for Government commitment so that we can deliver 5,850 new social housing starts within the mandate.”
“I am, however, happy to hear from the party opposite when it responds. <BR /> <BR />Constrained housing supply will always place pressure on the private rented sector first. That is why I am committed to a balanced approach, protecting tenants while safeguarding investment and supply. I am focused on delivering more affordable homes across Northern Ireland. That is exactly what the housing supply strategy does. We have a target of 100,000 homes over the next 15 years, including 33,000 social homes. Meeting that ambition will be essential for people who rely on access to social housing and cannot depend on the private rented sector, which is not suitable for everyone. <BR /> <BR />Following December monitoring, the budget for new social housing in this financial year is around £207 million. That will deliver 1,750 new starts this year.”
“No. I am sorry: I gave you a year. I gave the Member a year to come back to me. He did not take me up on that, so I will move on. <BR /> <BR />I was referring to the Sinn Féin amendment and why I will not support it this evening. One of the other things that it wants to see happen is the establishment of a body to regulate the rental sector. I have trouble with that simply because of the cost. I am aware of no attempt by those who have called for such a body to be established to quantify those costs or explain where the money would come from. Perhaps, in winding up, Sinn Féin will provide that information. For comparison, the Irish Residential Tenancies Board cost €32 million in 2024. We know the situation regarding rents in the Republic of Ireland, and we wonder whether that would be good value for money.”
“I will come to that. I am able to read: I saw what is referred to in your motion. There has, however, been a wider discussion on rent controls. In particular, the Sinn Féin position is not about third-generation rent controls; its amendment calls for "robust rent controls". I have the right to reply to other parties in the Chamber, Mr Durkan. It is not all about you and your motion. It is right that we have that debate.”
“There is more. The Republic of Ireland and Scotland have continued with versions of first-generation rent controls, and reviews have highlighted impacts such as increased initial rents for new tenants, reductions in property maintenance and reduced new supply, especially of build-to-rent homes. The clear lesson from those experiences is that addressing housing supply across all tenures is the most important challenge for the long-term sustainability of the rental sector. <BR /> <BR />It is not the first time that rent control has been discussed in the Assembly. It is worth noting that, over a year ago, I asked Mr Carroll to provide the evidence that, he said, he had that first-generation rent control policies worked. I am waiting for that evidence; I think that I will be waiting for it for some time.”
“That tells you all that you need to know. The Welsh Government commissioned their own research and agreed with that assessment. They have rejected rent controls outright, as they would deter investment and risk reducing supply.”
“In particular, the report highlighted the risk that a large proportion of landlords might exit the private rented market and that that would result in a drop in the supply of private rented properties in an already stretched market. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Carroll referred to earlier, I have previously quoted the UN rapporteur on housing, who came to the Building. He quoted a famous, perhaps the most famous, Swedish economist Assar Lindbeck, who famously said:”
“That does not mean that we have not taken action to address issues around affordability. In April last year, I introduced legislation to restrict rent increases to once in any 12-month period, with a requirement for three months' written notice. That provides important protections for tenants by offering certainty and preventing multiple or unexpected rent increases in a short time frame. <BR /> <BR />Let me touch on one of the issues that has been replicated in the motion and the amendments, and that is rent control. A report commissioned by my Department on rent freezes, known as first-generation rent controls, clearly outlined the potential negative impacts of these types of controls on the sector.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the proposer of the motion and all those who have contributed to today's debate. I fully recognise the depth of concern expressed by Members about rising rents. It is something that I experience, week after week, in my constituency, through those who come to me. As recently as Friday, I was dealing with someone who has gone through that experience, and it left her and her family in a very difficult situation. It is something that we are all aware of; we all know about the problem that exists. I will not go over the facts and figures that have been provided, rightly, by other Members in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The private rented sector is experiencing strong and sustained rental growth. That has primarily been driven by a shortage of available properties. That is the issue that we face: supply.”
“I am sorry. You gave me so much latitude that I thought I had an extra minute because I had given an intervention. My time is up. This is the last debate in this place for the year. I wish you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and everyone here at the Assembly a very merry Christmas.”
“You are being very generous. I was thinking for a second there —.”
“<BR /> <BR />One thing that was missing from the debate was the issue of creating wealth. We need to be in the position to do that. We need to make sure that we are generating more in our economy. We need to make sure that we have more productivity in our economy so that we can help people and put that towards those need it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another issue that was raised by Ms Armstrong was around fraud. She might be getting sick of me saying this, but let me just say that this is not about those who are in need. This is not about those who have made mistakes. This is about people who are misrepresenting their circumstances in order to get money, and, sometimes, we are talking about £30,000 or £40,000 and, in one case, £65,000. That is money that they are not entitled to, so I will happily crack down on fraud and on the error that takes place in my Department. I want that money to go towards helping people who need it most, and I will continue to address that. <BR /> <BR />I will address one more issue, which is around the hardship fund. It is another example of sticking plasters. I want to make sure that we spend that money better as well.”
“The anti-poverty strategy is entirely about spending the money that we have earlier and in a better way so that we can achieve longer lasting benefits. <BR /> <BR />The Chair of the Communities Committee said that we need to see a strengthening of the anti-poverty strategy. I am open to that. I am open to any and all measures that will make a lasting and real difference to people. <BR /> <BR />We absolutely need to support people now. We absolutely need to provide immediate support and relief, as we do through discretionary support. However, we need to get real: we need to start doing things that will make a long-term difference. We need to invest rather than just handing out money in that way. That is what I am determined to do, and I will not be found wanting on that.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member who secured the Adjournment debate also mentioned the need to avoid short-term measures: sticking plasters. That is exactly what has driven me in the development of the anti-poverty strategy. It is not about asking, year by year, what additional mitigations we can put in place or what other help we can give to those who are in need; it is about how we can spend the money sooner and in a better way so that it will have a lasting impact. In 2022, we got extra money because of the rising cost of energy, and we gave the money directly to people. I want to see such money spent earlier on energy efficiency measures to help people who face difficulties with their home every year, rather than their being given one-off support.”
“One reason why I want to make sure that we get more people into work is that it frees up money that we can use to help people in other ways. I have already mentioned the disability and work strategy. That is about getting 50,000 more people into work and bringing the disability employment rate from 40% to 50%, which is the rate in the rest of the UK. That will save £750 million that otherwise would be paid out in benefits or would not come in through National Insurance and income tax payments. That £750 million will go to the Treasury, but think of how that could give working households some of the extra support that we want to see. I am keen to get people into work and to provide support with the additional funding that that frees up.”
“The strategy will be ambitious, and I will be looking for a significant capital investment in energy efficiency measures in particular because those things could make a real difference. Every year, we spend lots of money on helping people, when we could have helped them earlier and for longer. Changes to the energy efficiency of a home can have a recurring benefit every year. That is where our focus should be, and it is what you will see in the fuel poverty strategy. <BR /> <BR />I will address a couple of the other issues that were raised. The Member who secured the debate expressed some concern about my approach to getting people into work. I acknowledge that many people are in work and still find themselves squeezed financially, and that is why I want to help in the ways that I have just outlined.”
“That is still being finalised. We got the extra funding only today, but I will provide that information to the Member when it becomes available. <BR /> <BR />We are trying to do many other things in housing. Over the past 20 months, we have tried many innovative ways of increasing housing supply, and, after discussions with the Finance Minister, I will bring a paper to the Executive about what we can do with public-sector land to increase housebuilding in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Fuel poverty is the second issue; addressing that could help working families. Huge amounts of money go out to pay for rent or mortgages, and one of the next biggest outgoings is the cost of heating homes. I am pleased to say that the fuel poverty strategy will be with the Executive this month; I look forward to Mr Muir's contribution to the discussion.”
“With the budget that was available in June, we were going to be able to build only 1,000 homes across Northern Ireland this year, but, working with my Executive colleagues, after today's announcement, we will be able to build 1,750 homes, which is really close to our target and should be welcomed. The loan to acquire —. <BR /> <BR />I will happily give way to the Member.”
“That is why we are taking action and why the housing supply strategy is in place. We have put in place other initiatives, such as using financial transactions capital (FTC) in new and innovative ways through the intermediate rent scheme, which will help people who find themselves stuck because they do not qualify for social housing but cannot afford the rents that we see in the private rented sector. FTC was underutilised; we are using it. We are building more homes, and we are using reduced rent to help people. <BR /> <BR />The social housing development programme is also important, and I am pleased that we are making progress on that.”
“The first relates to housing. We know the impact that housing can have — the costs of rent and mortgages. We need to do a better job of building more homes and of doing more to address the cost of housing, because we know that it is one of the biggest outgoings for any family.”
“Understandably, they can say to themselves, "Why am I doing this? Why am I knocking my pan in when I'm actually hurting myself by excluding myself from some of the support that is available?". That is what we need to change, and it is why I have two areas of focus for working families.”
“I know that there is more to be done and more that we need to do, but that demonstrates that support is going into the North Down constituency, and that will continue. <BR /> <BR />Of course, much more needs to be done to tackle the issue. First, I will pick up on one issue that was raised by most Members who spoke this evening: working families. Members are absolutely right to highlight the fact that many of those who experience the effects of poverty most acutely are in working households. We see that time and time again. I want to stand up and speak up for them, because they are doing the right thing — they are going to work; they are trying to do their best; and they are playing by the rules — but they find time and time again that they miss out on support that is available to others.”
“I give my commitment that I will do everything that I can to tackle the issue. <BR /> <BR />We have already done and continue to do many things in the North Down area to help those who are in need. For example, over the past year, the Make the Call outreach team has helped 1,159 people in North Down, securing additional benefits of £6·57 million that they were entitled to. We have secured the winter fuel payment support; the Northern Ireland Housing Executive has invested almost £7 million in 660 homes; £3·25 million of private-sector grants and support has been made available; and there has been £500,000 for projects in 13 neighbourhood renewal areas, £138,000 for independent advice services, £820,000 for labour market partnerships and £135,000 for social supermarkets.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome the debate and, indeed, congratulate the Member for securing it. I am sure that she and others in the Chamber will have heard the jokes and guffaws around the Building today about our debating the issue of poverty in North Down, as if that is somewhere where poverty could not or should not exist. However, we know that poverty does not stop at constituency boundaries. Yes, we have areas, as we have in my constituency, that are considered to be affluent, but, right next door, you have areas of deep deprivation. Therefore, it is right that we have this debate and talk about what we can do to help. I give the firm commitment that I am every bit as keen to make sure that we tackle poverty in North Down as I am to tackling it everywhere else in Northern Ireland.”
“I am prepared to do something differently to meet the challenges that we face.”
“No, it does not, because I want to ensure that we have more houses in Northern Ireland that are suitable for those who require them. We do not need to ensure that all houses are built to the same standard. Doing that would increase the cost, and, over the lifetime of the house, there might not be anybody living in it who requires those expensive changes. I want to make sure that we have sufficient houses that are properly constructed and adaptable for those who need that. I would rather make sure that we have more houses overall that meet the needs of disabled and non-disabled people than have fewer houses that are built to a certain spec that is not necessarily needed for everybody. It is a common-sense thing to do. We can keep doing things the way that we have always done them and wonder why we do not get different results.”
“If there are more, of course we will listen, engage and take on board what we can, because we want something that genuinely meets the needs of disabled people. That is why the process is in place. We will be happy to listen to all.”
“This is a consultation process: we are going to hear from people. Having put other strategies in place, I understand that, when you go out for consultation, there will always be those who will say, "Why isn't x in?", or, "Why do we not have y or z in the document?". This is the opportunity, through the strategy, for people to give us their feedback and views. <BR /> <BR />I met many of the stakeholders last week. It is fair to say that there is broad welcome for the strategy; that people are pleased that it is in place, that they have been listened to and that we are now going to be able to start collecting data; that the disability forum is in place; and that there will be a review of the legislation. Many of the other 58 commitments in the strategy are to be welcomed.”
“We have the disability at work strategy in place, because opportunities should be open to everyone. Work is an opportunity — it is a good thing — and people should not be prohibited from working because of their disability. That is why we have put that strategy in place and why we think that employers should make reasonable adjustments if that would help people enter the workplace. That is why we are putting through JobStart to help people, many of whom have disabilities, get into work. I want to be clear: I am not taking the approach that the Labour Government have taken and pulling the rug from under people. I want to help people get into work and improve their life chances. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be aware that I have not seen the documentation that he talks about, but of course we will engage.”
“One of the reasons why it is so important is that we need to raise awareness and visibility, and we need to be better aware of the small things that we can do every day to improve the opportunities, experiences and life chances of those who are affected. I welcome the establishment of that group and his support for the strategy.”
“I am pleased to hear that that group has been set up in Mid and East Antrim Borough Council, and I wish it well as it carries out its work. Of course I would like to see the regional disability forum engage with other stakeholders as it carries out its work and monitors the implementation and development of the strategy. It would be useful for them to take into consideration the views of others, particularly when it comes to ensuring that the needs of all deaf and disabled people are met, because there are significant differences in some of the challenges that are faced, especially between urban and rural areas. That is where the expertise of the group that he mentioned in Mid and Antrim Borough Council can be useful. I welcome its establishment, and I hope that other councils can look at that example.”
“if he is not able to find his. <BR /> <BR />The Member asks a relevant question. It is important that we have a step change and that staff, be they in the public or private sector, understand the needs and concerns of deaf and disabled people. Those are changes that we look forward to bringing through, but, of course, there will be a requirement, whether for the Civil Service or elsewhere in the public sector, to understand the changes that will be implemented and the things that they can do to make it easier for deaf and disabled people. You will see some of those come through in the action plan, specifically, but, if the Member thinks that there is anything missing, I encourage him to respond to the public consultation.”
“I hope that Santa comes. I hope that the Member has been a good boy this year. That is maybe to be determined. Maybe he can ask Santa for a new phone”
“A very happy Christmas to Mr McNulty as well.”
“There has been extensive engagement not just with the Department of Education but all Departments because it impacts on so many areas of life. Of course, that engagement has happened through the groups that have been set up. We have been clear that we want to make sure that we help people fulfil their full potential, and that includes children's educational experiences. <BR /> <BR />I encourage people to look at the document and to respond to it and to the commitments that we have made to see what needs changed and what can be improved. It will be a genuine consultation process. If the Member would like to see any further issues included in it, we would be happy to hear from her.”
“Absolutely. I have said that I want representation to be as broad as possible so that we hear those views. As I said, there are differing circumstances in rural and urban areas. Those need to be taken into account. We want it to be as comprehensive as possible in taking in all those views. I certainly hope that we have some representation from South Down as well.”
“As I said, the forum will be composed entirely of deaf and disabled people. We want as broad a representation on it as possible. There are many people involved in the disability sector. I want it to be broad, because I want to hear the views, the expertise and the lived experience of those involved. We do not have the details yet on the exact process for that. It will also depend on the feedback from the consultation. However, the forum will have a key role not only in monitoring and holding us to account but in bringing forward new ideas as time progresses, because it is a 10-year strategy.”
“First, I thank the Member for his kind words about Seán. I was at an event that paid tribute to him last week at City Hall. I have no doubt that he made a significant contribution to the document through his work in the groups. I pay tribute to him and to the work that he carried out. It was great to meet his family and his son, Ollie, last week. I am very grateful to him for that work. <BR /> <BR />The Member may have been a little bit wrong when he said that he had not met anyone who thinks that the Act is not fit for purpose, rather than fit for purpose. I do not think that it is fit for purpose. That is why we need to do more work on it, and that will be done. There is a commitment, as I said in the statement, to review that. I hope that there is not any misunderstanding. We will take that forward.”
“Instead, we are trying to make sure that we get as wide a range of views as possible, because it is important that we have expertise and representation from all sectors. That is what I am determined to do, and we will update as soon as we have more information on that.”
“The Member is right to highlight the fact that I want the forum to be in place as soon as possible; in fact, we have already had quite a bit of interest from those who have volunteered their services. Obviously, we still need to go through the consultation process, getting final agreement from the Executive and putting it out there. I will make sure that we do as much of that preparatory work as possible, and we will inform people of what it will entail. As I said in my statement, the forum will be different from any of the other bodies that have been set up. For example, we are not asking for some of the professional or life experience that some may have required for other roles.”
“The Member is right to highlight that issue. It is important that we have the resources in place. It is also important that we take action now to make sure that people do not find themselves in the situation that the Member described due to ageing and that we have as healthy a population as possible. The Member will be aware of the significant investment that we put into those issues. It would certainly be inappropriate for me to comment right now, but I hope that we will have further good news on that later today. However, we certainly need to make the most effective use of our resources, which is why that work is being carried out. I will update the Member accordingly.”
“The specific details are still being worked out. The Member raises an important issue, however, because we want to make sure that the forum will be fully representative of the sectors and individuals that need to be on it, and I have stated that it will be. <BR /> <BR />As for timelines, we can do some preparatory work now, but we are keen to have the forum in place to feed into some of the changes that we want to see. At the very most, I would expect it to be created and in place within 12 months. That is very long-term, so I want to pull that back as much as I can and have the forum in place as soon as possible. The furthest away would be 12 months, but I hope that we can pull it forward, and I have instructed officials to do that.”
“Yes, absolutely. That was a key ask and is one that we will deliver on. That work is starting now. It will require significant resource, because the existing disability legislation is extremely complex, but we have to see that as an opportunity to create meaningful and lasting improvements in the lives of deaf and disabled people. Any new disability legislation would be a positive measure but would also be cross-cutting; we would need to collaborate across Departments and then get Executive agreement. I am committed to doing that because that is what the sector tells us that it needs, and listening to it on those issues is important.”
“That is why it is important that we have a joined-up approach and why the strategy will help us to deal with poverty.”
“Other issues include communication, which is why it is so important that we have introduced the sign language legislation. We will implement the disability and work strategy because we know that one of the best routes out of poverty is through work. We have to make sure that people have jobs, that they have the ability to travel to them and that they get the reasonable adjustments that they need. <BR /> <BR />We know that participation in the arts and in sport is also a contributing factor in helping to deal with poverty, and the strategy includes that. It is also about making sure that people have suitable accommodation; housing is another key commitment in the strategy. All those things together can help us to tackle poverty, along with, of course, improved access to health and social care.”