Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I have asked officials to undertake proactive and meaningful engagement with the sector throughout the process, because it is important that we help where we can.”
“We have not rejected outright the authors' recommendations on the producer's licence. The reforms were introduced by the Department to modernise the liquor licensing regime. That followed extensive consultation with the industry representatives, and it came into force only in 2022. The number of local producers' licences granted by a court has grown from seven in 2022 to 15 in 2023 and 20 in 2024. We are under a statutory obligation to review those provisions three years after they came into force. I anticipate that the review of the provisions on the producer's licence will be launched early next year, and the need for further reform will be considered in the context of the responses to that wider review.”
“That is an area of concern. It will be looked at as part of the three-year review that follows the legislation being passed in 2022, and that will begin next year. We will look at suggested reforms of the producer's licence at that time.”
“I am sorry to repeat what is already in the report, but those are matters for the Department for the Economy. However, I would certainly be supportive of that.”
“Yes, of course. I would have loved the money to have been spent in other ways, although we have got some useful information and data from it. I certainly agree that I would like to see the night-time economy being supported. The Member has been vocal in ensuring that contributions have been made from Departments, including mine, to make sure that that money can be used for the night-time economy. It shows the need for us to recognise the constraints on Departments and the requirement to sometimes outsource some of the work. It is something that we should all be careful of when passing legislation.”
“We certainly want to make sure that the necessary licensing regime and the enforcement of that are in place, but the cost of doing that would have been prohibitive. It is not a priority for us at this time, but, of course, the issues will be kept under review. I do not think that the report went into the detail that we needed on that issue.”
“My views on the issue will be led by the evidence. I am not convinced on that; I speak from personal opinion. I want to deal with alcohol-related harm, and there are different tools at our disposal to do that. There is some contradictory evidence coming from Scotland on that, and I have asked for more information to help better inform those discussions. I have no objection in principle to these things, but I want to make sure that we have a robust evidence base so that any changes that we bring in will be effective in dealing with the problem and will lead to improved health outcomes.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I have spoken directly to organisations that are affected by this. Although the Department did not accept the author's recommendation to introduce a new category of licence, I recognise the role that the licensing regime plays when it comes to the issues that the Member raised. I have asked my officials to explore the current regime, which provides 13 categories of licence, to see how we can support this and provide potential solutions, if those are required, which they are.”
“I would reiterate that point to Mr O'Toole, who took great interest in the subject but seems to have left the Chamber already.”
“The Member is right to highlight the value of the hospitality sector to the economy more widely. The report states that around 6,000 people are directly employed in the pub sector and the wider licensed trade, excluding grocers and supermarkets, and that it directly employs an estimated 27,500 people and sustains 36,000 jobs overall. The report also quotes an independent report commissioned by Hospitality Ulster that states that, in 2017, hospitality provided 8·7% of jobs in Northern Ireland, contributed £1·6 billion to the Northern Ireland economy and generated £88·4 million in tax revenue. That indicates just how important the hospitality sector is to the economy in Northern Ireland and why we need to be careful about making significant changes without having them properly costed or impact-assessed.”
“We have to understand, however, that what may be a positive consequence for one person might have a detrimental or, in some cases, devastating impact on other people, and those all need to be taken into consideration. That is why I think that we are taking the right approach, which is making sure that we cost proposals, that we impact-assess proposals and that we make sure that they contribute to the overall goals that we have. That is what I am committed to doing.”
“Let me make it clear that I am the person who is sitting in this chair, and I am the one who makes the decisions. I am fed up with people coming to the House and asking, "Well, what did officials say on this?". Officials are not elected. Officials are not held accountable: I am, though I am happy to confirm to the Member that there was no disagreement on the issue with officials because we have a team in the Department that is very aware of the issues and knowledgeable on what is going on. <BR /> <BR />I understand that there will be disappointment for some who might say that we do not have changes in place. It is not that there will be no changes. Some reform will take place, and reviews of existing legislation will be under way at the start of next year.”
“Over recent months, in GB alone, which has a different licensing regime, we saw more than 200 pubs close, so it is wrong to say that licensing is a major or the only factor that is contributing to that. Also, multiple issues contribute to the wider health issues that he mentions. It is important that when we consider time, we do not come with half-baked ideas but take time to consider all the implications and not how it will affect just one group of people.”
“Yes, but it was the Member's initiative that brought that forward. Frankly, I am a little surprised that he has not realised or mentioned the other consequences that it will have. He wants me to move in one direction, but he fails to recognise or understand that there are consequences of every action that we take in that area. Therefore, moving away on the surrender principle or some of those other issues that he might want us to move on will have direct and real consequences for other people. Unfortunately, that was not noted in the report that was produced, and it is disappointing that those issues were not taken into consideration. <BR /> <BR />Another point to raise with the Member is that it is not the licensing regime in itself or the licensing regime alone that is contributing to some of the issues that we see in society.”
“To answer the last question, I will bring those proposals forward as soon as possible. I do not have a definitive timescale for the Member, but I will bring forward proposals that are costed and have had their impact assessed. Frankly, the Member is responsible for me standing here today by bringing the amendment and report through.”
“I am committed to working with delivery partners, stakeholders and industry representatives to ensure that any changes are consulted on, fully impact assessed and subject to meaningful engagement. In the meantime, we will focus on what can be done now in the existing regime to improve awareness, accessibility and responsiveness. That includes ensuring that public health concerns are not just acknowledged but actively addressed. I commend the statement to the House.”
“I am not taking forward the recommendation to establish a new licensing authority; however, I have asked my officials to work with their delivery partners to make the system easier for applicants and stakeholders to navigate. A number of the authors' recommendations fall within the responsibility of the Department of Justice and its agencies. I will write to my Executive colleague the Minister of Justice to bring those recommendations to her attention and seek her views. <BR /> <BR />The review provided a valuable opportunity to reflect on how our licensing regime can evolve, but reform must be proportionate, evidence-led and aligned with the needs of our communities and economy.”
“<BR /> <BR />The action that my Department takes in response to all those recommendations reflects my priority, which is to ensure that the licensing regime is as effective as possible in addressing alcohol-related harm. That includes clear commitments to work with our delivery partners, such as those in the Department of Health, to explore how best to reflect public health concerns in the administration of the licensing regime, including via the application of the adequacy principle, which ensures that a licence will not be granted if an adequate number of licensed premises are already in the vicinity. <BR /> <BR />I will also take action in a number of other areas. For example, community input into licensing decisions will be strengthened by reviewing the objections process. Transparency and accessibility will be enhanced.”
“I have directed my officials to explore how the current licensing regime has contributed to the growth in off-sales and the relative decline in pub licences, as well as to explore the policy options that are available to us to effectively address any corresponding growth in alcohol-related harms. The role that a licensing regime can play in supporting market diversity and innovation will also inform my Department's response to recommendations on local producers' licences, which were introduced in 2022. Those recommendations will be taken forward following the completion of a statutory review and will be accompanied by direct and meaningful engagement between my Department and representatives from the sector.”
“The recommendation to reform the surrender principle and the authors' other recommendations were not impact assessed or costed, and I am not persuaded that the authors have made a compelling case for such a fundamental change, which could have significant and unintended consequences for the economic viability of our hospitality sector at a time when many are operating below viability thresholds. I understand that recent figures from Hospitality Ulster highlight the fact that 27% of operators are now operating at a loss and that another 20% are just breaking even. <BR /> <BR />That is not a rejection of progress. The report also provided my Department with the opportunity to consider how the regime can be further improved and modernised.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Licensing and Registration of Clubs (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 delivered the most significant reform of our licensing system in over 25 years. It modernised a regime that had remained largely unchanged since 1996 by introducing extended opening hours, removing outdated restrictions and creating new licence categories to reflect changing consumer habits and support local producers. Those reforms were evidence-based, phased and carefully calibrated to support both the public interest and sector sustainability. Any further reform must be held to the same standard.”
“Its sale is, rightly, subject to the regulation of a licensing regime that dictates who can sell alcohol, where, when and in what circumstances. The purpose of the controls is to ensure that the right balance is struck between facilitating the responsible sale and consumption of alcohol and protecting public health, public safety and public order. In that way, the licensing regime also plays a role in assisting our hospitality sector in its sustainability and attractiveness to customers. Our licensed premises are vital for the Northern Ireland economy. They support tourism, provide employment and serve as important social spaces in our communities. That is why I have decided not to accept the authors' recommendation for targeted reform of the surrender principle.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Act also required my Department to produce and publish a plan setting out how it proposes to respond to the report. My officials have considered each of the 26 recommendations faithfully and in detail, and a comprehensive response to each can be found in the document published this morning. In some circumstances, my Department's response is to definitively accept or not accept the author's recommendation. Other recommendations require a more nuanced approach. That includes where the Department partially accepts the recommendation or where the underlying objective is already satisfied in the current regime. <BR /> <BR />In providing this update to fellow Members, let me reaffirm a core and guiding principle: alcohol is not an ordinary commodity.”
“During the passage of the Licensing and Registration of Clubs (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2021, the House approved an amendment placing a statutory duty on my Department to appoint an independent person to undertake a review of the liquor licensing system, including the surrender principle. In fulfilment of that duty, my Department appointed a consortium, led by the University of Stirling, to undertake the review. The resulting report, published on 21 February 2025, contained 26 wide-ranging recommendations covering the operation and administration of the regime; its impact on public health and the economy; and its responsiveness to consumer and community needs. The recommendations are publicly available, and I encourage Members to read them.”
“It has been debated in the House, and she will be aware of the correspondence that I have had with the UK Government on it. It is likely that that provision will impact on only a small number of people. Around 10 to 15 members across the UK will benefit from it as a result of being members of the PPF or the FAS, but, if just one person benefits, it is worth our doing it. I am pleased to have her support, and I expect the support of the whole Chamber today. <BR /> <BR />I thank officials for the work that they have done on the LCM to make sure that we are all kept right, and I echo the comments of the Member who spoke previously. Although the changes are small, this is a good day and is indicative of the work that we can do to improve people's lives.”
“I understand the concern about who decides whether something is in their best interests, but, as the regulator responsible, the Financial Conduct Authority will have supervisory oversight of contractual overrides and will be notified about proposed transfers. It will also oversee a range of safeguards and procedures that must be followed before a variation or transfer can occur. I assure the Committee Chair that strong consumer safeguards and consumer protections will be in place in the new regime. Contractual overrides will be permitted only when they are in savers' best interests. I thank him for his comments and for the Committee's support. <BR /> <BR />I am also grateful to Linda Dillon for her comments. We have a common position on that issue.”
“I thank the Members who contributed to the debate. I thank the Chair of the Committee for Communities and Committee members for their support for the LCM. The Chair raised a number of issues but specifically that of contractual override. I understand the concerns that have been expressed, but we want to make sure that people who are in pension schemes have the best return. We want to make sure that poor value and poor outcomes are not being delivered. There is sometimes a lack of engagement from pension scheme members, and there is often little that providers can do to address that. The measure is intended to enable pension providers to transfer a saver's pension to another arrangement or provider without their consent but when it is in their best interests.”
“it is content with the LCM and recognises, based on the evidence received by the Committee, that the changes are beneficial to people in Northern Ireland. I look forward to a robust and thrilling debate on those issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am aware of the importance of the Assembly's role in considering legislation and, in particular, of the value of the Committee's scrutiny role. I am grateful to the Communities Committee for the time that it has taken to consider the measures in such a short timescale. Its report is thorough, and I appreciate its noting that, while it:”
“That means that it will not be possible for an Executive Bill to be passed to meet the same operational date as the Westminster Bill for those measures unless the accelerated passage procedure is used. Agreement that clauses 48, 104 to 109 and 111 should extend here will allow those important provisions to be enacted across all jurisdictions at the same time. <BR /> <BR />Whilst I seek to avoid using the legislative consent motion process where possible, it seemed sensible to secure the pension scheme benefits afforded by those provisions for Northern Ireland members by agreeing to an LCM in respect of the clauses listed. The intention is to introduce in the Assembly a parity Bill for all remaining clauses in the Westminster Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 111 allows the Money and Pensions Service (MaPS) to include on its dashboard information relating to the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme, including individual-level data. At present, the Pension Protection Fund and financial assistance scheme are excluded from dashboards because they are classified as compensation schemes rather than traditional pension schemes. However, many individuals rely on those payments as part of their retirement income, and their inclusion would significantly enhance the effectiveness and completeness of the service for members of those schemes. <BR /> <BR />The provisions enacted by the clauses listed in the legislative consent motion are intended to become operational shortly after the Bill receives Royal Assent.”
“That change will remove the need for schemes to seek court enforcement, reducing costs and delays for courts, schemes and members and ensuring an efficient, accessible way of resolving pension disputes. <BR /> <BR />Clause 109 seeks to extend the terminal illness definition from six months to 12 months for individuals who are entitled to compensation payments from the Pension Protection Fund (PPF) and the financial assistance scheme (FAS), bringing it into line with similar provisions in social security and tax legislation. The Assembly previously approved that measure through a legislative consent motion (LCM) for its inclusion in a Westminster private Member's Bill; however, that Bill fell at the dissolution of Parliament for the 2024 general election.”
“Clause 48 relates to contractual override and makes provision for pension scheme providers to transfer a member's contract to another provider or vary contractual terms without the need for individual consent where that is in the member's best interests. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 104 to 107 relate to the contracting-out regime that applied between 1997 and its abolition in 2016. The clauses seek to restore certainty about scheme liabilities and funding by allowing schemes to retrospectively obtain actuarial confirmation that benefit changes made during that period meet the reference scheme test even if written confirmation was not obtained at the time. <BR /> <BR />Clause 108 seeks to restore the Pensions Ombudsman's original 1993 role by reaffirming its status as a competent court.”
“The Pension Schemes Bill intends to strengthen pension investment by supporting over 15 million people who save in private-sector pension schemes to get better outcomes from their pension assets and to support the UK Government's mission to deliver growth. The Bill seeks to create a private pensions market that encourages consolidation and focuses on value and outcomes for members, enabling people to have security in retirement and pension schemes to invest in a wider range of assets, driving growth. <BR /> <BR />I will give a brief overview of each clause that extends to Northern Ireland.”
“I repeat the point that doing nothing would result in fewer homes being built. I do not know whether that is the Member's position, but it certainly sounds like it. I want to build more social homes, in contrast to the Member. It is right that we take this step, because the alternative would mean that you would, potentially, push more people into the private rented sector and the rents that many people face there. <BR /> <BR />I make no apology for doing what I can to build more homes. The Member has opposed me on nearly every move that I have made to increase housing supply, which makes me think that I am doing something right.”
“That is exactly why I brought forward a housing supply strategy that commits all Executive Departments to working towards the goal on the number of homes that we want to build and ensures that we work together to achieve that as soon as possible. Absolutely, there is a responsibility and an onus on everybody to make sure that they play their part, and I will not be found wanting in making sure that other Departments play the roles that they need to play. I want other Departments to give me the funding that is necessary, and I want other Departments to help on issues such as waste water and other infrastructure. I will play my part, and I hope that others will play theirs.”
“The alternative would mean fewer homes. What I am doing today not only maintains the current trajectory that we are on but will mean that we can build more homes.”
“Ultimately, it will be for each housing association to determine and assess the viability of each of the schemes, but reviewing the grant levels will also come with a review on standards, so it is important that we ensure that the ecosystem for housing drives efficiency and innovation. In my conversations, I have been encouraged to hear that we are in a healthy lending environment. Housing associations have the ability to borrow, and that leverages the capital that we can invest in the programme. <BR /> <BR />Hopefully, housing associations will understand that, first, I am providing certainty over a long period and, secondly, I am reviewing the design guides and the standards to see how homes can be built more cheaply, ensuring that we can, therefore, build more homes. That is what I am trying to do, and it is a positive measure.”
“I hope that it was not negative noises coming from the bottom of the Chamber, and I hope that she is actually in support.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thought that the Member was chuntering during my speech, but I think that it turned out to be a sneeze on her part”
“The number of new homes that we could start would have been impacted if we had done nothing, because our budget is not increasing in line with the cost of building homes. We either build fewer homes, or we increase the funding that is available. In the absence of that funding being available from the Executive at this time, we are looking to housing associations and the private finance that they can draw on and that we are unable to draw on. I have consulted housing associations; I have had conversations with banks; and I have had conversations with the Housing Executive. We do not believe that this will have a net negative impact; in fact, we believe that it will help us to build more homes, and I hope that the Member will be supportive of that.”
“It absolutely will include housing associations. I am more than happy to bring other voices into that review. The housing associations asked for a review, and I am keen that it is done as soon as possible. I was encouraged by my conversations with them, and I think that they want to move even more quickly on it. It is to their benefit and ours to make sure that it is done as quickly as possible. We will, of course, listen to others who may have something to bring to the table.”
“Rent is up to the housing associations, but I will take rents into consideration, as well as the return that housing associations get for their properties, when I am determining the housing association grant in future. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. I want to see that revitalisation take place, and I am glad that that is now part of the fiscal framework discussions. We need to see that accelerated and delivered, however, because we are losing money every month by not proceeding with it and by not having the powers to invest in our stock and to build new stock.”
“Those are the costs that have been provided as our estimates for building a social home. Many people will be surprised at their cost, which is why I want to make sure that we look at how we can make it cheaper to build social homes. The housing associations need to build those homes to a certain standard. I want to make sure that everything that we build is necessary. We will look at the design guide and at Secured by Design so that we can bring in additional certainty and do everything that we can to bring that cost down. We are also looking at how we can use land, because that is a massive part of the cost of housing overall. We are looking at all the elements of that.”
“I have spoken in the House again and again about the importance of housing and how a good, warm home can take pressures off elsewhere. We need to realise not just that this is about helping people to find somewhere to live but that it is an investment, so we need the money for that.”
“Ultimately, however, we need to make sure that we meet our targets. The Programme for Government had a clear target for housing. The actions that I am taking today are my attempt to make sure that we do everything that we can to increase the number of builds with the money that we have. We need more money, however. We need to increase that in order for us to meet that target. I have no doubt that the Finance Minister wants to make sure that we meet our social housing targets. The sector is watching, as are the construction industry and, most important, our constituents, so we need to make sure that a Budget is brought forward that gives us the capital that we need so that we can meet our targets. <BR /> <BR />This is not just about somebody having a home but about all the other things that come from that.”
“I will continue to do that. Last year, we bid for £230 million, and, in total, we have received £177·5 million with, I hope, some additional money to come this year in monitoring rounds.”
“He will be able to confirm that, at every possible opportunity, I have bid for the capital that I have required to build homes.”
“The Finance Minister has just walked in. He could answer that question as well.”
“I absolutely believe that we should have homes that can be adapted and used for people who have additional needs, but there is no point in building them all to that standard if doing so results in fewer homes overall.”