Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“for the arts and creative industries. There are real positives to be found in multi-year funding agreements and few downsides. The practical reality, however, is that, to be meaningful, a multi-year funding plan needs a multi-year budget. Should circumstances allow for multi-annual departmental budgets, which, I believe, we will see soon, I for one will certainly embrace that opportunity.”
“The creative industries sector is one area in our economy with exceptional potential for growth. <BR /> <BR />On the relationship between the Department for the Economy and Department for Communities, I can say that the engagement between officials on issues to do with the creative industries is positive and productive. <BR /> <BR />The motion also proposes the publication of:”
“From those engagements comes a greater shared understanding of and appetite for the potential of the arts and culture to play an even bigger role across Executive priorities in health, education, the economy and so on. <BR /> <BR />Today's debate has touched on the Programme for Government (PFG) and the arts' place in it. I take some issue with the idea that the arts are completely absent from the Programme for Government. While the arts may not be captured in the PFG top priorities, if we look a little more deeply into the well-being framework, we will find arts and culture to be a key indicator across the work that is being done. We need to look at the PFG priorities as a whole and think of the contribution that people and organisations working in the arts make to growing the economy.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is also important to recognise that the financial pressures felt in the arts sector and many other areas of the Executive's work will not be dealt with solely through public funding, as Mr Bradley rightly said. We need to broaden funding sources and seek new avenues of support, ensure that our funding and distribution structures are robust and effective and work across Departments to recognise and maximise the impact of the arts. Those are all key tenets of the work being undertaken to develop the new arts policy. Rather than work in silos, the approach is intentionally collaborative and has already seen engagement between my officials and each of the other Departments and, by the way, all 11 councils, which is important.”
“That is in addition to the more than £2 million that I have provided to support my Department's partnership with Northern Ireland Screen. That pattern was seen last year, too, when I added almost £3 million in resource and capital funding to the Arts Council's opening allocation. <BR /> <BR />I will continue to invest in the arts and creative activity and to make the case for more investment from the Executive. However, in order for me to make that case, policies, ideas and partnerships are required, and the Heritage, Culture and Creativity (HCC) programme that I launched in July last year will be the catalyst for that. In the first phase, it will renew policies on public libraries and museums and, crucially, fill the policy vacuum on the arts and our historic environment.”
“I understand that words are one thing, and I know that Members across the Chamber will want to judge me on my actions. I am happy for that to happen, because everyone in the Chamber knows that the current financial landscape is highly competitive and strained and that unpalatable choices have had to be made. However, even against that backdrop, I have chosen to add £500,000 to the Arts Council's opening resource budget this year. I have also increased its opening capital allocation by over 50% to £1·4 million: first, for an initiative that will put instruments into people's hands across all communities in Northern Ireland and in school groups and other musical and cultural groups; and, secondly, for a small capital grants programme that will benefit arts activity and organisations throughout Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />Today's motion focuses on the strategic importance of the arts and the mechanics of support. I acknowledge and fully understand that engagement in the arts can have a significance that is broader and deeper than many of the issues that we deal with here. I understand the intrinsic value of the arts, which is often very personal and difficult to quantify. When I speak of "the arts", I mean their personal and intangible value, as well as the broader economic and social value that is at the core of today's debate, and that is what I will turn to now. <BR /> <BR />On the value of the arts and the funding position, let me be crystal clear by reiterating what I said in the House in January:”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, there has been a mischaracterisation of my position on regional funding. I certainly agree with the Member: I want to see regional balance. I do not think that there is that balance at the minute. We need to see more of it. When I discussed the issue in the Chamber last week or, potentially, the week before, I highlighted the fact that my constituency and my council area got 0·4% of the overall arts budget. <BR /> <BR />Yes, I understand that the Arts Council is not the only organisation that delivers arts funding. I get that many of the organisations that are based in Belfast work in areas outside Belfast and, indeed, across Northern Ireland. We are on the same page in wanting to make sure that we get that support across Northern Ireland. That is why I have taken some of the actions that I have.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for Foyle Sinéad McLaughlin for bringing the debate to the Chamber today. I agree with nearly everything that she said, and, indeed, I agree with many of the comments made by Members around the Chamber. However, as she would probably expect, I take issue with a couple of her comments. First, she said that I do not get that the arts are an important lever in tackling economic inequality: I do. I fully grasp and understand that. I wish that I were in a position to do more. I absolutely understand the impact, because I have seen that in communities in my consistency, in that of Mr Brett and Mr Kingston and in many others. The arts have a transformative impact, and I want to be able to do more. I will address that more in my comments.”
“I want to make it very clear, as I did at the start of my comments, that I welcome the debate, am more than happy to be held to account and want to focus on this issue. The Member certainly cannot level that accusation at us today. I am more than happy to have that discussion and make sure that we are held to account.”
“I will finish by offering a copy of that strategy to Mr O'Toole so that he can see some of the progress that we are making. I am happy to sign a copy for him as well.”
“I am sorry. I have less than a minute left. I would love to take another intervention, and I am always open to doing so, but I do not think that the Speaker will give me any additional time, so I need to move on. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the scale of the problems that we face. I am absolutely committed to making sure that we can deal with them. I am the one who has looked at the new and innovative things that we can do that will make a difference. I will continue to do that and to advocate for more social homes. The housing supply strategy is one example of how we are working better together. <BR /> <BR />Previously, Mr O'Toole said that he was looking forward to the publication of the housing supply strategy. It was published in December.”
“I want to make sure that people do not fall into those issues in the first place.”
“I am sorry: I am limited in my time. I would give way to the Member, but I have already taken a lengthy intervention. I will, however, come on to Mr Gaston's points. He set out some of the issues, and I agree with him. Waste water infrastructure, in particular, is critical. I want to see action on that and explore all the options. I am more than happy to look at the plan that the Infrastructure Minister brings forward. Mr Gaston raised some other important concerns, particularly around HMOs. Work is being considered on that issue. <BR /> <BR />I take issue with Mr Carroll's point. Yes, I do not have all the resource that I want, but, for the first time, we have dedicated funds for homelessness prevention. It cannot be said that we are not doing anything on the issue when we have allocated more resource.”
“It should be welcomed. What they are saying is that the new innovative plan that we brought forward, which will save £75 million. How many other Ministers are bringing forward plans that will save £75 million? Mr Carroll identified as a problem the fact that too much money is spent on temporary accommodation. What have we done? We are doing something that has not been done in recent years. We are using reserves to buy homes to take the pressure off that. That is a good thing. I want to see more of that.”
“— to deal with the problem. It is just opposition for opposition's sake.”
“She says that it is not enough, but those 600 homes will save £75 million on temporary accommodation over the next seven years. It will save £75 million over the next seven years, because we will take that pressure off temporary accommodation. The Member does not think that that is a good idea.”
“She also asked about tangible activity that we have taken part in. I have listed that in the House many times before. We have had tangible delivery on housing, not only the strategy and the commitment in the Programme for Government. The 600 homes that we are using will save —. The Member is rolling her eyes. The 600 homes that we bought will save —”
“I am sorry: I disagree with the Member, and I think that that is a shallow argument. I have already identified one way in which there has been greater working together; on infrastructure, that has been lined up already. <BR /> <BR />The other issue is one that the Member has already raised — Mr Bradley raises it with me frequently — which is second homes on the north coast. That issue was not on the agenda of other Ministers. I worked with the previous Economy Minister, and we are taking forward plans to address that. If she is saying that we do not work together, talk about the issues or get tangible outcomes, I have to disagree with her.”
“We have a housing supply strategy that is already making a difference. We see that in how officials work together and operate and in the fact that the Finance Minister allocated to Infrastructure an additional £16·5 million last year so that we could connect 2,300 social homes. Having a document that outlines how we are to work means that we are making progress. I often take criticism on such issues, but, on this one, there has been more joined-up work and a joined-up approach.”
“I will say what I said earlier about the anti-poverty strategy: I have no desire for it to sit on a shelf and do nothing; I want it to be effective. There is agreement in the strategy that new legislation, policies and procurement protocols will be required to underpin that. We will identify where new powers and policies are needed to enable strategic delivery and set out a framework for implementing them. <BR /> <BR />That takes me to a point that a few Members have raised today. I will pick up on comments by Claire Sugden, who stated that we have "siloed government" in Northern Ireland and that nothing gets done. I have plenty of criticisms of the Executive and Executive colleagues at times — I keep those to myself — but, to be fair, on this issue, we have taken a joined-up approach.”
“That is the first time that we have had it on record — on paper — that the issue is being taken forward. I am pleased that, for the first time, we have been able to secure complete cross-party consensus on the issue and that the Government have officially confirmed that they will take that on. I wish that that had been done a long time ago. I have made sure that they have been provided with all the relevant information. I have made sure that the Housing Executive is ready to go when the changes are, I hope, confirmed. In summary, we are making progress on that, so the amendment from Mr Allen and his colleagues is entirely reasonable. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong mentioned monitoring in relation to the housing supply strategy.”
“No one has been a greater advocate of making sure that we have that funding than me, so I am more than happy to have the debates and to make sure that we see progress on Northern Ireland Housing Executive revitalisation and borrowing. <BR /> <BR />Yet again, I tell the House this: I have used every opportunity that I have had to raise the issue with the UK Government. I have raised it with the Deputy Prime Minister. I have encouraged the First Minister and deputy First Minister, who raised it with the Prime Minister. I have raised it with every UK Government Minister whether or not it is their responsibility. I am therefore pleased to confirm what was outlined in the comprehensive spending review this month:”
“He identified those issues and the need to tackle waste water infrastructure problems in Northern Ireland. To be fair, those are all good ideas, but they are also ideas and plans that we are already taking forward. It is important to acknowledge that. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to the comments by Andy Allen, who proposed a reasonable amendment that outlines the challenges that we face and the problems for the 49,000 households that are affected. In that amendment, he also rightly acknowledges that some steps have been taken. I have done what I can with what I have where I am to address the issues, but more needs to be done. I am more than happy for Members to table motions calling for sufficient funding for new social housing.”
“I have been doing exactly that by purchasing 600 homes using Housing Executive reserves to take the pressure off temporary accommodation. We have been pressing down. I have met housing associations and the Housing Executive about void properties so that we can make sure that we bear down on empty association and Housing Executive homes. <BR /> <BR />We are also working with others. For example, we are working with the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs on dilapidation. That is in addition to the measures that my Department is taking to look at how to reuse buildings that were maybe homes in the past and those that were not. Mr Durkan will also be aware of the announcements that I have made in the paper that I will bring to the Executive plans for how we can best use public-sector land in Northern Ireland.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I begin by sincerely thanking the Opposition for tabling the motion. I am always happy for there to be a focus on the subject. It is important to me and to the people of Northern Ireland. I thank Mr Durkan for his tone today, which has been uncharacteristically conciliatory. I think that he recognises some of the things that we are trying to do. <BR /> <BR />I will address some of the issues on housing that Mr Durkan raised. He said that he has set out a plan for what the SDLP would do: I accept that he has done that. However, to be frank, it is not that different from what we are already doing. He says that we need to look at issues around, for example, temporary accommodation.”
“I believe that what we have here is a good start. I am open to hearing other people's views on that, as well as the views of other Ministers, if they want to bring forward any other proposals. However, I have here a plan that, first and foremost, will tackle the root causes of poverty. Yes, that is about increasing incomes, but it is also about making sure that we reduce costs. That is the work that I have been getting on with, particularly in housing, in order to make sure that housing is more affordable and that people can heat their homes, which is one of the biggest outgoings that they have. I will not be distracted from that work. I will keep doing it, because I am here to deliver for people across Northern Ireland.”
“I know that, in his world, there are very simple answers to complex problems. However, what those simple answers will do is end up hurting people more, including the people whom he claims to represent.”
“The evidence that we have demonstrates that rent caps would drive people from the market and drive up the costs for all the other homes that are left in the private rented sector.”
“The Member had his line written before he even heard my statement. There has been no bluster from me today: I have been straightforward, upfront and honest. I have not put together a wish list strategy that is not affordable or deliverable. I have been very honest and upfront with people. The co-design group will, no doubt, makes its views heard. Its members have already been on the airwaves making their thoughts known, although they told me that they will engage with their organisations before they make final comments. <BR /> <BR />The Member demonstrates again how he gets things wrong. In calling for a rent cap, he is proposing something that will hurt people more in the longer term.”
“The reason why I did not simply bring a strategy to the Executive table and throw it down in front of the Executive was that I wanted to make sure that it was realistic, affordable and deliverable. That is why I set up a working group with representatives of all Departments and asked them to come back to me with the actions that they could take forward. Those actions are what we have in the strategy. Departments have committed to delivering them, and I look forward to their doing so. At the same time, I hope that the strategy will be agile so that, when additional resource becomes available or if there are programmes that are a better use of money to tackle such issues, we can divert resources where necessary. The setting and monitoring of targets will follow in the action plan.”
“Unfortunately, children whose families break apart are more than twice as likely to experience poverty as those whose families stay together. I am not stigmatising anybody when I say that: it is a declaration of fact. That is where the evidence lies. That is why we want to support families and young people so that we can ensure that they have fulfilling and complete home and family lives.”
“I am not about stigmatising anybody. The actions that were brought together were a result of the evidence. I want to see young people in secure families, where there is the support that they need. I am more than happy to share the evidence base that we have with the Member, but there is no doubt about it: if you look at the evidence, you see that a wide range of family factors impact on the chances of families being in poverty, which also have an impact on children's futures. That is what we are trying to address, but let us be honest at the same time: the Centre for Social Justice reports that the break-up of family relationships is one of the quickest routes into poverty. That is a concern, and we want to help address it.”
“I will do my best to ensure that we put in place actions that make a difference: to stop people falling into poverty in the first place; to stop the impact of poverty where it is found; and, importantly, to help people to get out of poverty. I will work with the Member on that.”
“I want to target poverty wherever it is found. I absolutely accept that it is a particular problem in the Member's constituency when compared with other constituencies. It is not about geographical location, however, but about tackling poverty wherever it is found. The issues that we are looking at, particularly in the draft strategy, are those that will tackle the root causes of poverty, and that is what I want to do. I genuinely want to work with the Member on that, because it is important. I have said that already. I will not be found wanting in working with everyone to help tackle poverty wherever it is found. It is in her constituency, but unfortunately it is not limited to one area; it can be found across Northern Ireland.”
“If additional resource comes in, and it is proven that putting it into action a or b will make a difference to people's lives, fantastic, and we will do that. The strategy will not be set in stone. I have asked the co-design group for more detail, however. I look forward to its providing additional information. I hope that we can discuss the issues with a little bit of truth and honesty.”
“— substantial actions have been taken. My colleague behind me urges me to say them all again. I am happy to do that, but I want to make the point that some actions have not been taken forward because of affordability issues. I could have stuffed the draft strategy with a wish list of things that I knew would never be deliverable or affordable, but I did not do that, because I am going to be honest with the people of Northern Ireland. I will put something on the table for agreement that we can deliver on and that will make a difference. I am not going to put into the strategy measures that I know that I will not get Executive support for or for which I will not get the budget. <BR /> <BR />I hope that we can be agile and flexible.”
“I have not disregarded that group's work. I met its members and asked for some of the specifics that they would like to see included that were not in there. I would like to have heard more from them, because, as I have said twice now —”
“It may well be the case that, throughout the lifetime of the strategy, we stop doing some of the things that I said in my statement that we are going to do, either because they are not working or because they are not having as big an impact as some of the other actions. We are determined to get the strategy right.”
“There has been a decrease in child poverty there, but it is nowhere near the targets that the Scottish Government had set. Relative poverty, which is the measure used, was at 22% in 2023-24, and I believe that their target was to get it down to 18%. I also make the case that Scotland started from a lower base than we did. All that I am saying is that, if we are to tackle the issue effectively, we need to make sure that, in a time of limited resources, we put the resources that we have into the programmes and actions that will have the biggest impact on driving down poverty. <BR /> <BR />We will be led by evidence and facts.”
“New actions will come forward. I have highlighted some of them already. In my Department, I have been working specifically on housing issues, such as the cost of housing and the cost of heating homes. It is important to note that the Executive got on with that work over the past 17 or 18 months. It would not have been right for us just to sit on our hands and do nothing, saying that we wanted to wait until the anti-poverty strategy was in place before we proceeded with some of the actions. We have been taking action. <BR /> <BR />Specific targets are for a later conversation, when there is Executive agreement and as part of the action plan. I am, however, sincere when I say to the House and the wider public that I want to hear their views on what we can do. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned particular figures for Scotland.”
“It will meet regularly to assess the effectiveness of the strategy, agree changes and updates to the action plan and sign off on formal reports. The anti-poverty strategy board will be supported in that work by the three pillar subcommittees, which will be chaired by a representative who is nominated by the permanent secretary of the relevant Department. That is what is in the strategy at this time, but, again, we are more than happy to sincerely take views from others about how it can best be monitored.”
“My response to the Member's first comment is that only one Minister has brought forward an anti-poverty strategy, and that is me. I am glad that she welcomes the work that I have done and the fact that I have progressed the strategy and got it to the stage where it has Executive agreement. I am grateful for her thanks and congratulations on that issue. <BR /> <BR />On the governance structures, again, we are going through a period of consultation, and I will be happy to hear any other views on that. It remains an Executive strategy that will be overseen by the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) and led by an anti-poverty strategy board. The board will be chaired by the head of the Civil Service and attended by Senior Civil Service representatives from all Departments.”
“I am more than happy for our delivery on the things that we are responsible for to be measured. We have targets for that, and I have already set out some of the objectives.”
“Each outcome will be underpinned by the action plan, which will be updated on an ongoing basis. A number of indicators will be used to monitor and track progress over time. That will be undertaken at the level of the pillars, and it will be done in a proactive and flexible manner. We will make sure that we use the appropriate statistics. As I said in the previous answer, I am keen to ensure that we are held to account on the issues that we have control over. <BR /> <BR />It is very difficult for us to set a target on tackling wider poverty, because that is not within the gift of the Executive alone. The Member will be aware of macroeconomic issues that impact on UK Government policy. We have seen that through the increase in oil prices, even over the past number of days.”
“Again, that is wrong: I have not chosen to ignore that advice. As I said, the place for targets will be in the action plan. We will put targets against the actions in the strategy that we have said that we will take. I want to be in a position where the strategy is measured and where we can be held to account, so, as I said before, targets will be there.”
“I pay credit to my Executive colleague, who has delivered and is continuing to deliver in that area, be it through tackling the cost of school uniforms, addressing the cost of access to education or providing additional resource for childcare, which the Member will be well aware of, given the impact that that is having. It is important that that be included in the strategy. Just because we are doing it does not mean that we should leave it out. We want to keep doing those things and build on them, as the Minister of Education is doing. I look forward to working closely with him, because he has a key role to play in ensuring that we tackle the issue.”
“I am grateful to the Education Minister, because there has been extensive engagement with him in that area. He has highlighted, as I have said, that we cannot lift children out of poverty without lifting families out of poverty. He has engaged with me on a number of issues — you will see them in the strategy — about how we can help with issues such as access to education and the costs of participating in education.”
“I fully admit that there may be some things the co-design group brought forward that we have not included in the strategy, but to say that nothing is coming forward from the co-design group is demonstrably wrong.”
“For the Member's benefit, I mentioned welfare benefits; period poverty; fuel poverty; making school attendance cost-neutral; extended mitigation payments; pressurising the UK Government to maintain the pensions triple lock; the need for a childcare strategy; an early learning strategy; additional budget for a childcare subsidy; low pay and workers' rights; housing; the housing supply strategy; revitalisation of the Housing Executive; the transformation of the private rented sector; improving access to benefits, advice and support for older people; the uptake of pension credit; delivering Make the Call; wrap-around service; and helping people access benefits and the support and services that they are entitled to.”