Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“My understanding and a plain text reading of the motion is that the SDLP wants me to present a plan before the Assembly to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024. I think that the leader of the Opposition wants me to present a plan before the end of this year, but, if the plain text reading is right, he actually wants me to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024. That is simply not possible in terms of finance and, particularly, the IT infrastructure that would be necessary. I am committed to doing what I can to address the issue. Concerns have been expressed via the amendment that my colleagues tabled, but I can assure the Member that I am working at pace to bring the report forward as quickly as possible.”
“We have that figure of £56·4 million, which is the mitigation cost, but additional IT systems would need to be in place, and there would be ongoing staff costs. Mr McCrossan, in particular, has frequently raised the issue of staffing in my Department. I simply do not have those additional costs for the Member, but Kellie Armstrong will remember the debates that we had in the House during the previous mandate on the difficulties around IT systems in relation to parental bereavement leave and pay. It is not easy for us to do that in terms of the finance or the infrastructure required. <BR /> <BR />I think that the SDLP means the motion to mean something other than what it means.”
“The policy has not led to the changes that they hoped for. There are issues with it. I am convinced of the problems that it causes. The issues around rape, for example, are particularly galling; it is horrendous to have to ask any parent to go through that. I do not support or defend the two-child limit in any way, and I do not think that it is of benefit to people in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I have to look at the cost of mitigating the two-child policy, however. As I set out earlier, the latest available estimate of the cost of mitigating it, if we were to take it on, is £56·4 million for this year. Kellie Armstrong asked about the total costs: unfortunately, I cannot give them.”
“My Department currently administers welfare mitigation schemes to alleviate the impact of specific changes to the social security system in Northern Ireland, such as the benefit cap and the bedroom tax, and the total budgetary requirement for the current mitigations package is £45 million for 2024-25. In October 2022, the independent advisory panel published the report of its welfare mitigations review, and it recommended creating new mitigation schemes, including the better start larger families payment, to offset the two-child limit. <BR /> <BR />I do not want the House to be in any doubt about my position on the two-child limit. I agree with what nearly every Member has said about that. From the research that has been done since then, the Government's ambitions have not even been met here.”
“<BR /> <BR />The factors to alleviate child poverty in our society are also multifaceted, and our approach must be collective and committed. I am certainly committed to doing what I can to drive down the levels of child poverty in Northern Ireland and to working with Executive colleagues to ensure that children who have been affected by poverty are afforded the opportunity to live happy, healthy and productive lives. <BR /> <BR />The report, based on 2019 to 2020 data, reflects that almost half of children in relative poverty in Northern Ireland live in families with three or more children. The two-child limit will inevitably impact on claimants who have chosen to have larger families.”
“As is highlighted in the report, growing up in poverty has lifelong implications, with children from poorer households being twice as likely to leave school with no GCSEs and those who attain five GCSEs being 24% less likely to get the top grades. That in turn leads to reduced earning potential and employment prospects in adulthood, and that is simply unacceptable. We must work together to give our children a better start and better opportunities not only to simply survive but to thrive and, importantly, to set them on a path to meet their full potential. We know that poverty is rarely caused by a single factor; indeed, the Audit Office report highlights the fact that low incomes, worklessness and the rising cost of living are all among the factors that significantly impact on child poverty.”
“They may want to reconsider their thoughts on that issue. <BR /> <BR />There is no question that, over the past several years, we have seen significant challenges for people in Northern Ireland and, indeed, the rest of the UK, particularly for our most vulnerable. We have had the COVID-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and we have seen food and energy prices increased to the highest levels in four decades. We know that those cost-of-living increases hit low-income households hardest. As Minister, I am committed to continuing the important work of my Department in providing support to those who are most in need. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge the findings of the Audit Office's report on child poverty, and I acknowledge the scale of the problems that we face, with 18% of children living in relative poverty.”
“I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate, and I sincerely thank the Members from the SDLP for their Opposition motions. It is useful for us to have such conversations around what are really important issues, and I am pleased to take part in the debate. <BR /> <BR />I thought it strange that SDLP Members Mr O'Toole and Mr McCrossan indicated that attendance at debates shows the level of interest that parties have in the matter. The Member pointed towards the attendance of other parties in this place. I do not think that he can draw anything from the attendance of Members today, but, if he is to do that and if he continues down that line, that must mean that the SDLP has no interest in housing, because there was an Adjournment debate on housing last week in the Chamber, and not a single Member of the SDLP turned up.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. I will have time to speak later, but, on that point, I thought that it would be useful for the House to have the updated cost for the next financial year, which will be £56·4 million, so it has gone up significantly. It is hard for us to estimate the cost, but the IT systems are additional to that. I make no comment but am giving that figure for the benefit of the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am running out of time, but I hope that Members are aware that I understand how grave the problem is. I hope that they understand my determination to deliver a strategy that is deliverable, effective and makes a difference for the people whom we represent. We are here to help to improve their lives. I will not be found wanting in my contribution to getting there.”
“We have children who are going to bed cold or going to school hungry. That has a huge impact on them, not just in the immediate term but on their potential. Poverty robs people of their potential, and of opportunity. That is one of the reasons why this issue needs to be tackled. <BR /> <BR />Mr Robinson is absolutely right: the strategy should be based on evidence. We need to make sure that we have collaboration between Departments. I was particularly interested in what Mr Mathison said, because the work that the Department of Education does will be absolutely key. If we are really interested in making sure that we have a longer-term impact, education is absolutely key to dealing with these issues. He is right to highlight that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will pick up on a point that Brian Kingston made. We are taking a little bit of time to get the strategy right, although we have been waiting for it for a long time. We want to make sure that it is effective and deliverable. I have heard time and again that we do not want a strategy that sits on a shelf; we want to make sure that it has targeted interventions. As he said, it is not just about the immediate support that we can provide but getting to the root of the problem. Mr Butler summarised well the issues that we are facing. He is right: it is about not just the money in people's pockets but the quality of life that people enjoy. The Deputy Chair of the Committee, Ms Ferguson, very well outlined the real impact that poverty has. We should never lose sight of that. That is why this issue is so important.”
“It is not just about financial resources; it is about opportunities, concrete outcomes and ensuring that we live in vibrant communities that are safe and welcoming for all. <BR /> <BR />These are important issues. I want to highlight some of the comments made today, and I will begin with the proposer of the amendment. I am in agreement with so much of what she said. Her amendment is a sensible approach to addressing some of the issues. Mr Gildernew, who is the Chair of the Committee, talked about a timeline. I do not have a timeline for the Member today, but I am sincere in saying that I want to make sure that this issue progresses as quickly as possible. Some of that is out of my hands, but I believe that, with the support of the Executive and the Assembly, we will ensure that that is progressed.”
“I do not believe that I will have a difficult time in getting support from Executive colleagues for what we are trying to do. <BR /> <BR />Of course, budget could be another issue. The motion calls for a ring-fenced budget to be provided for the strategy. Given the range of anti-poverty interventions that are already being taken forward and the multiple factors behind the issue, that might be a difficult task. Ultimately, consideration of a specific ring-fenced budget, alongside how we measure and monitor progress, will be a matter for the Executive to consider in the context of developing the strategy. I want to make sure that we put in place a process to ensure that this later work is taken forward at pace and with a collaborative and holistic approach, so that we can make a real difference to those who are impacted by poverty.”
“I certainly give the assurance that I will do all in my power to highlight the importance of the issue and to ask for cross-departmental collaboration. When I was in the Chamber earlier, I highlighted some of the sensible working collaboration that we are already doing. I hope that that continues. I say that because we have shared objectives in the Executive. If we can tackle poverty — particularly if we can tackle its core, child poverty — we can make such a difference to all the other things that we are trying to do. I have often said that the Department for Communities can make a really positive impact early on. If we make an early intervention, it makes a difference, which takes the pressure off the education system, the justice system and the health system later.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also provide significant funding — in the region of £6·6 million — to the independent advice sector, to provide local and regional advice on a range of issues including social security, immigration appeals and tribunal representation, as well as regulated debt advice. Other ministerial colleagues will be able to show the work that they are doing in their Departments to help those who are impacted by poverty.”
“Work is being taken forward today to support the most vulnerable in our society. There are many different ways in which that is being done in the Department, such as the work on universal credit and the different benefits that are available, and my Department's Make the Call wraparound service. <BR /> <BR />Importantly, my Department promotes the value of work and the positive impact that it can have on poverty, health and well-being, social inclusion and our economy. Our labour market policy supports good jobs as a route out of poverty, supporting individuals and families.”
“I have been considering how best to take the work forward at pace. I will shortly bring a paper to my Executive colleagues, setting out how we will develop the anti-poverty strategy and a timetable for that. Once the Executive agree the approach, I will be in a position to share it more widely. I note that much work was undertaken previously on an anti-poverty strategy. However, given the time that has passed since that initial work was undertaken, the changing economic circumstances and a changing budgetary environment, it will be necessary to revisit and build on that work, reflecting the changing pressures and priorities that we face today and will face in the years to come. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say that, even in the absence of an agreed strategy, we are not sitting on our hands.”
“Given the many competing priorities that we face, it is essential that we focus our efforts and resources on the areas that will yield the greatest benefits.”
“Given that this will impact upon a generation of our population, we need to make sure that it includes the right priorities, the right actions and the right interventions.”
“If children in poverty are to truly see their lives changed in the long term, it will require an approach to tackling poverty that is broad enough to address the issues that prevent children and their families from fully engaging in society. This will not only benefit children but will allow us to build a more inclusive country and a brighter future for all. <BR /> <BR />It is clear from the comments made by colleagues in the Assembly today that we do agree on the urgency of this work. It is equally essential that we take our time to ensure that the responses are effective. An anti-poverty strategy that will also address child poverty is likely to have a lifespan of 10 years.”
“This means schools supporting disadvantaged children to achieve the best results they can. It means health services supporting those with long-term and chronic conditions to be able to live fulfilling lives. It means strengthening our economy so that high-skilled jobs are available to all. It means creating a partnership between our broader society and individuals and families who are trying to lift themselves out of disadvantage. <BR /> <BR />It is also essential that we acknowledge that tackling child poverty means addressing wider issues of disadvantage in our society. Child poverty does not exist in a vacuum. We simply cannot lift children out of poverty without also addressing the issues that affect their parents, grandparents, carers and all the people who support children throughout their life.”
“While we address these issues, it is also essential that we ensure that our society and economy provide opportunities for the future. Ensuring that there are high-skilled and meaningful jobs available for everyone will be key to dealing with the issue of poverty in a sustainable manner. <BR /> <BR />As we have said, this is absolutely not something that one Department can deliver by itself, although I look forward to taking the lead on this issue on behalf of the Executive. As we all know, this will impact on the Departments of Health, Education, Finance and the Economy. Indeed, it will impact on all Departments in the Executive. As I have already stated, it is essential that we work together to support individuals and families as they work to escape poverty.”
“That is of real concern as it appears that poverty in Northern Ireland is returning to the levels that it was at before the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />While I note that levels of children in poverty after housing costs in Northern Ireland are returning, those levels are still lower than the averages across the rest of the UK. That is no reason for us to be complacent. We need to work with Executive colleagues to drive poverty as low as we possibly can, and a key aspect of work will be ensuring that children who have been affected by poverty can achieve in education and have healthy and productive lives in a thriving society. <BR /> <BR />Dealing with poverty means not only dealing with low incomes, as others have alluded to this afternoon, it will also involve us tackling issues such as educational attainment and health inequalities.”
“As has also been said during the debate, I do not want to produce a strategy that is just going to sit on a shelf, and I do not want us to get any credit for simply developing a strategy; I want us to actually deliver on it. My focus will be on working with Executive colleagues to deliver a strategy that prioritises the outcomes that actually make a tangible difference to people's lives. <BR /> <BR />Over the past few years, no one can be in any doubt that Northern Ireland, alongside the rest of the UK, has faced a range of challenges that have impacted on us all. In particular, those challenges have impacted the most vulnerable. The most recent statistics published by my Department show a significant rise in the number of children and working-age adults living in poverty.”
“That is exactly what I was coming to because I agree. This is not just about warm words anymore — we need action. In fact, I have listened to all of the contributions across the Chamber today, and I have spoken in many debates in this place over the past 10 years, and I do not think that there has ever been a debate in which there seems to be such commonality. There has been a lack of interventions of substance because, I think, Members are all on the same page. We all understand that action needs to be taken, and that is what I want to outline today. <BR /> <BR />I am reluctant to use the word again, but, yes, it is a complex and multifaceted issue. I think that that highlights the fact that this is not for just one Department to solve. We genuinely need to see a cross-party and cross-Executive approach to this strategy.”
“I am ambitious for this place and for our people and am therefore committed to working with Executive colleagues to address fundamentally the causes and impacts of child poverty. <BR /> <BR />Today's debate allows us to discuss how best to —.”
“I hope that we can have useful debates on those issues, which impact on some of the youngest and most vulnerable members of our society. <BR /> <BR />I want to be very clear: addressing poverty, in all its forms, is a key priority for me. Many statistics have been mentioned in the debate, many from the Northern Ireland Audit Office report. I know that it is a cliché, but we should never lose sight of the fact that there are individual families and children behind each of those statistics, and they are impacted on by child poverty. The Government have a role to play in helping to deal with that. <BR /> <BR />I believe that child poverty is a blight on our society. It creates hardship and limits opportunity, and it stifles the potential of our children and young people.”
“May I say to Mr O'Toole and the SDLP that I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the motion and, indeed, the other motions that they will be bringing to the Chamber tomorrow? I am flattered that they want to spend so much time with me today and tomorrow.”
“I do not think that I have refused to meet anybody at any stage. I am more than happy for anyone to send me an invite to talk about these issues. I think that the Member previously asked me whether I would do a call-out for people to come. I am happy to meet anybody who wants to talk to me about this issue. However, this is a good day. This is a day on which a problem has been identified. We had the potential for a fight over who was responsible, but, instead, Ministers worked together to bring about a resolution to an issue that has the potential to impact people right across Northern Ireland. I want to make sure that we have legislation in place that deals with that disparity and the reason for it so that we can provide additional protection for people in Northern Ireland. That is something that everybody should welcome, and most have.”
“As I have said a number of times here this afternoon, I am not going to comment on or get involved in ongoing matters. As he will understand, it would be inappropriate for me to get involved in the specifics. However, I hope that, when the legislation is produced, it will become apparent to the Member what exactly it will do. I look forward to being able to publish that legislation.”
“I assume that the Member is referring specifically to the Victoria Square residents who were highlighted in the High Court case. I have not had any direct engagement with them. I am more than happy to meet the residents and explain what I intend to bring forward, but I cannot, and no one should expect me to, get involved directly in the ongoing process. It is a live civil matter, so it would be inappropriate for me to do so. However, as Minister, my door is always open; I am happy for anyone to raise with me any concerns that they have about any issue. I am happy for that to be on the agenda; I just need to make the very clear distinction between what we are trying to do here and the separate matter that is ongoing.”
“In the meantime, yes, we are getting the resource that we need. However, it is important to highlight that this is not over yet. We are starting the process and making good progress, but there is more to be done. I will continue to need the support of Executive colleagues to not just allow the legislation to progress but, importantly, make sure that I have access to the resource that I need. Perhaps that will be financial, but it is more likely to be human resource. I hope that I can continue to depend on the support of others in that regard. I think that there is a collective will to get this done, so I hope that the funding and the people will follow that.”
“We have worked well together on that resource, and I hope that that will continue. That is one part of an overall issue of building safety that I hope to progress during this mandate. I will need to make sure that I continue to have that resource in place, and I hope that I will.”
“I am grateful to the Member for raising that issue. It is important that the Assembly deliver on issues that matter and that people can see that Ministers have taken a collaborative approach to this in making sure not only that we get the transfer of functions order sorted out — hopefully, I will get support for the legislation — but that our Departments have been working well together in resourcing it. I am not concerned primarily with resourcing in terms of pounds; people resource is what I need. I am grateful to colleagues in other Departments, particularly the Department for the Economy, who have provided some of the human resource that we need. That is where the big challenge is at the moment. We understand that these are complex issues. We need people with the right skills, and not all of those lie in the Department for Communities.”
“I thank Mr Dickson for his comments. I know that there has been some interest in the NHBC warranty. Ultimately, it is for the NHBC to decide how the legislation would affect the warranty. Mr Dickson might want to contact the NHBC. I understand that it is an issue of concern, but we do not have direct control of or responsibility for it.”
“The Member will not be surprised to hear that I agree with him on the importance of having a local Assembly and Executive in place. However, they are worth having only if they are prepared to do the things that need to be done in order to improve the lives of our citizens. I hope that the Member has seen my commitment to this matter from the start. I did not want there to be a fight over which Minister would be responsible. I took it on, we made sure that the work was done in the Department, and we worked with the Finance Minister and the AERA Minister. It shows how the Assembly can deliver and get things done. Obviously, I cannot comment on ongoing civil matters. My goal is to deal with the disparity in legislation, and that is what we will do.”
“Obviously, there are a number of different hurdles and barriers in the way to getting it through, but I believe that, very soon, I will be able to send it to the Executive to get Executive consent. I will then need to get the Bill drafted and through to the Executive again. I hope that I can count on the member's support at the Committee for the accelerated passage process. I cannot give a timeline, but, again, I hope that people recognise the action that I have taken on this to date and the need that is out there for the disparity to be resolved. I want to do it as quickly as possible, and, if I have the support of the Members of the House and the members of the Executive, I believe that we can do that very quickly.”
“First and foremost, I hope that everyone will recognise that well-being through the safety of our citizens in Northern Ireland should be something that everybody wants to see and be part of. I understand what the Member is asking about the impact on the industry here, and it is important to say, as the Member will know from his constituency, that many of Northern Ireland's construction companies are already working in England and Wales under the increased responsibility and duties that have been placed upon them under the legislation. I believe that our local industry is incredibly resilient and has a history of adapting well to new challenges, and I have faith and confidence that it will be able to work to the standards that we hope to achieve through the legislation.”
“I hope that that commitment from him and the Committee still stands, because that is an important hurdle that we can get over in order to progress the legislation as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />My Department does not have a role or responsibility for people who are affected right now. My job is to try to deal with the disparity that exists in the legislation, and that is what I intend to do.”
“I will make a number of points. First, I do not have an exact timeline of how quickly legislation can be progressed. However, I hope that the Member will look at the steps that I have taken so far and will understand that I take the matter seriously and want the legislation to be progressed as quickly as possible so that the disparity no longer exists. I will do everything that I can to progress it as quickly as possible; however, some of it is out of my hands. I will require the consent and support of the Assembly, particularly on the accelerated passage process, and of the Executive. I received a letter from the Member in recent weeks on behalf of the Committee asking whether it is possible for me to fast-track any new legislation on defective buildings.”
“The proposed legislation came about due to the fact that there is a disparity between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Certainly, the High Court case highlighted that disparity. The Member will understand that it is inappropriate for me to comment on ongoing civil matters, but it is a positive that today we are dealing with that disparity that exists between different parts of the UK.”
“I am confident that we can make the desired progress on this issue, but getting it done quickly will depend on the support and consent of the Assembly and the Executive. I hope that I can count on that support in the coming weeks. I commend the statement to the House.”
“The primary legislation will address the period under which action can be taken with regard to defective buildings and will address the unfair disparity that currently exists and disadvantages our people. <BR /> <BR />I do not seek consent for the accelerated passage process lightly. I fully respect the right of the Assembly to have the normal time and scrutiny processes. However, it is not right that this discrepancy between Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the UK is left unresolved. This is an issue of grave concern, and it has the potential to impact many people right across Northern Ireland. I wanted to bring this matter to the House to keep Members updated on my intentions.”
“That will be based on the provisions introduced in England and Wales by sections 134 and 135 of the Building Safety Act 2022. <BR /> <BR />In order for us to continue to deliver for people here, I am seeking the ongoing and urgent support of my Executive colleagues and this Assembly to ensure the swift passage of this legislation, which will provide Northern Ireland residents with the same recourse and protections as prescribed in other jurisdictions where a building is shown to be defective. Given the urgency, I am writing to Executive colleagues today to seek their support and approval to introduce new legislation under the accelerated passage process.”
“Therefore, I am pleased to announce that I intend to bring to the Assembly and Executive, as a matter of urgency, legislation to provide the same protection associated with defective premises for citizens in Northern Ireland to that afforded elsewhere in the UK. <BR /> <BR />The proposed Bill will introduce new provisions into the Limitation (Northern Ireland) Order 1989, establishing a retrospective period of up to 30 years and a prospective period of up to 15 years in which a party can take action for defective premises. It will also introduce a new clause into the Defective Premises (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, which will allow a building that contains two or more dwellings to be treated as a single dwelling for the purpose of the order.”
“I also want to thank officials in my Department who have been working on this issue. My Department acted swiftly and took on responsibility for residential building safety. The residential building safety division was tasked to bring about this improved building safety policy and legislation, which enhances the residential building safety system for the citizens of Northern Ireland. That team will need additional resources sooner than expected, in order not to delay or impact that significant work. <BR /> <BR />The extension of the limitation period for defective residential buildings is one of the matters that was already under consideration as part of the Department’s review of policy and legislation. However, I recognise the importance of that matter and the necessity to quickly bring us into line with the rest of the UK.”
“We quickly agreed to a collaborative, constructive approach to achieve urgent resolution to the issues raised. I would like to pay tribute to the cross-party collegiate support and swift action taken by my ministerial colleagues in Agriculture and Finance.”
“<BR /> <BR />The public wanted to see action on that disparity, but it was not immediately clear which Minister would take it forward. Although the powers lay with DAERA, Minister Muir had indicated that he believed that it was incorrectly allocated to his Department. Following discussions with Minister Muir, I agreed that my Department would take responsibility for these issues and, last week, gave my consent to the transfer of functions order to move them from DAERA to Communities. <BR /> <BR />I know that the last thing that the public wanted was for Ministers to fight over who was responsible. I am pleased that my Department was able to step up and take it on. Minister Muir and I subsequently met the Finance Minister. The need for urgency and decisive action was apparent to us.”
“<BR /> <BR />The High Court case has, however, highlighted that the Limitation (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 permits actions regarding defects in residential buildings to be taken only within a six-year period in Northern Ireland. That compares to a time frame of up to 30 years elsewhere in the United Kingdom. As Minister for Communities with responsibility for housing, I was struck by that disparity in legislation between GB and NI. It places people in Northern Ireland at a clear disadvantage compared with their counterparts in other regions of the UK. It is clear that there is an urgent need for fit-for-purpose legislation that provides improved protection to all those who live in Northern Ireland. That was clear to the public as well.”