Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I very much appreciate his kind words, and he is right: today is a good day for Northern Ireland. It represents further delivery, which is what we want to see in this place. He is absolutely right about the consultation. We will be engaging with service users, and it is very important that we do so. <BR /> <BR />I thank Joanne Bunting for her contribution and for her history of involvement with the issue. The story that she told about her personal experience highlights so much of what we are trying to fix today, which is people's embarrassment and their shrugging of shoulders because they have become so used to the isolation that comes with using sign language. That is what we want to change. We want to make sure that people have access to information and to services.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Brett talked about the real impact that we can make in this place, and I think that we can. Today is a good example of that. He is sitting beside Mrs Dodds, who introduced the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill, which I was able to take through the Assembly and enact when I was Minister for the Economy. The now Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2022 and this Bill are two good examples of how we can make a difference in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Mr Brett went on to say that he is often critical of me. He has never been critical of me to my face, so perhaps he is critical of me to others, because he is always telling me what a good job I am doing. He is an excellent advocate for his constituency, and he always brings me issues, with which I endeavour to help him.”
“We are trying to make sure that everybody in Northern Ireland can access information and services on the same basis. <BR /> <BR />I thank Sian Mulholland for her contribution. She clearly highlighted the importance of implementation, and I am very keen on that. I want the Bill to be passed as quickly as possible. It will be great to have the Act in place, but we need to make sure that we have the follow-on from the legislation as well. Whether schools will be included is a decision that will be made when we look at the prescribed organisations. The Member also mentioned the shift in practice that we need to see and the importance of early intervention, which is something that we are responsible for, and do, in the Department. Early intervention in whatever area can make a real difference.”
“We should see how we can ensure that people have access, but, more than that, we need to normalise sign language. The news bulletins were a part of daily life for those in the hearing community as well, and that has now gone. <BR /> <BR />Carál Ní Chuilín is no longer in her place, but I agree with what she said about the work of officials and the perseverance of the deaf community over the past number of years. I thank her for her comments about the sign language at the start of my contribution. It is important that people can have that sort of access. <BR /> <BR />I thank Cheryl Brownlee for her contribution. She clearly recognised today's significance. For me, the phrase that stood out from her contribution was "equal footing", and that is what we are trying to do.”
“He made some good comments, so that is one for the history books. He said that it was important that we were here to legislate, and the leader of the Opposition is always keen to point out that we need to legislate more. Well, today, we are doing that. Straight after this, I will move the Further Consideration Stage of the Pensions (Extension of Automatic Enrolment) Bill, and I have already taken through the Defective Premises Act (Northern Ireland) 2024. There are lots of examples of legislation that I have brought forward, but he is right to mention that it is good to make legislative changes today. I am more than happy to work with colleagues in the Departments of Education and Health as he outlined. He importantly raised the issue of the news bulletins, and that was a regressive step.”
“He said that the legislation needs to deliver "real transformative change", and I absolutely agree with him. I have no intention of passing a Bill that just says "Sign Language" on the cover; it needs to make a difference and ensure that we have access to information and public services. He also mentioned the importance of rural proofing, and I am interested in that as someone who represents a rural constituency. When I went to Action Deaf Youth, I met young people who had travelled from Cookstown to avail themselves of those services. I hope that, through the provisions that we put in place, those services can be extended beyond Belfast. He mentioned the need for proper accreditation for interpreters, and that will be covered in the Bill as well. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGrath was very positive.”
“No offence to Mr Muir, but the Radioactive Substances (Fees and Charges) Scheme (Northern Ireland) 2024, which the Minister released last year, may not be as high up the public agenda. It is about balance and what is reasonable, and not all information needs to be provided. We need to consider the key information that improves access to public services. That is what we will be looking at doing. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned the need to ensure that we liaise closely with those who will be most affected by the legislation. There are not necessarily any penalties attached to the Bill. However, there is a statutory duty to comply, and there will be avenues of redress, as always, if people fail to meet their statutory duties. <BR /> <BR />I welcome Robbie Butler's comments.”
“However, there are examples of how it may be unnecessary for us to provide certain services in some circumstances. For example, I am sure that the deaf community might like an interpretation of some of the significant announcements that we make in the House, such as what my colleague Mr Givan has been doing in relation to the Northern Ireland childcare subsidy scheme or what I have been doing in relation to the winter fuel payment scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />As regards the "prescribed organisations", again that is something that we will develop in collaboration with the community and other interested stakeholders. Kellie Armstrong also made a comment in relation to cost, and I understand where she is coming from: we do not want to make the cost a barrier or to use that as an excuse.”
“That was to give time for the legislation to bed in and to properly review it. However, I am more than open to considering amendments to that or, perhaps, looking at what we can do one, two or three years in, rather than a full review, although that can be considered. We could also look at the possibility of doing an initial report, perhaps an internal one, as to how the legislation is working. <BR /> <BR />I hope that those who are in the Gallery and watching online today will see that this is actually part of the legislative process. We do not just present something on the table and decide whether to say yes or no. We debate and we try to make improvements. I am happy to do that.”
“However, just to address some of them now: she particularly asked what "promote" actually means and whether I could give a definition of that. We will produce best practice guidance. That will be co-designed with the deaf community, through the sign language partnership group. She will find that, as with so much of the Bill — the bodies that it applies to, best practice and definitions — that will be done alongside the deaf community because it is particularly important that its views are noted in that regard. <BR /> <BR />She also asked how the legislation's success would be measured. That will be done through the five-year review. It will be an independent report in collaboration with Departments, the deaf sector and the sign language partnership group. A number of Members raised the issue of the five years.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank Mr Kingston for his support and, importantly, for outlining what sign language actually is and how important it is that we make progress on it. <BR /> <BR />I also thank Kellie Armstrong for her comments and, in particular, for the fact that she recognised many of the individuals who made today possible. She mentioned Jordanstown School in my constituency, which I had the pleasure of visiting last year. It was a fantastic visit, and it is a truly wonderful school that does fantastic work. <BR /> <BR />Ms Armstrong asked a number of questions. Although she is supportive of the Bill's general principles, she has a number of questions, which will be answered throughout the process, and we will be happy to address those.”
“I am not sure whether this is appropriate — we do not normally do it — but I do want to thank the officials, because it has been a labour of many years to get us to this point. We are very grateful for that as well. <BR /> <BR />I listened carefully to the points that were made by Members during the debate. I start by thanking the Chair for the comments that he made on behalf of the Committee and reminding us of the event that took place in June in the Long Gallery. It was a reminder for us of the reason that we are here today. He also, rightly, acknowledged the patience of the deaf community. This Bill has been a long time coming — too long — but I am glad that we are finally at this stage. He recognised the importance of the Bill and that the Committee stands behind its general principles.”
“but for that period, you have brought us together and we are very thankful. <BR /> <BR />I have to say that it was really great to see everybody here today. In particular, a short time ago, I looked up at the Gallery, and there were some children there, laughing, smiling and signing to one another. That is really great to see, and I want to make sure that this place is as accessible as possible. I thank Pam Cameron, who worked with me in 2019 and 2020 to write to the then Speaker to encourage greater accessibility to this place for those from the deaf community. As a result, we have interpreters, who come along and make this place more accessible. I am very pleased that that is happening. <BR /> <BR />I thank all those in the Gallery today.”
“I sincerely thank all the Members who contributed to the debate for their remarks. I am thankful to the Chair of the Committee and for the contributions from other Committee members and Members of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />It is fair to say that, today, the deaf community in Northern Ireland has brought the Chamber together. There have been so many positive comments flying about, that it has been like a love-in in here. I can guarantee you, though, that it will last all of five minutes”
“For too long, they have experienced social exclusion rooted in accessibility barriers, communication challenges and negative societal attitudes. The Bill seeks to remove those barriers for them and for future generations of the deaf community, including the deaf children I met at Action Deaf Youth. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Bill is something we can all support. I urge all Members to get behind it today. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“BSL or ISL. That remains a priority for me. My Department currently invests over £250,000 in a variety of family sign language courses for deaf children, their families and their professional support network. I recently visited Action Deaf Youth, a local deaf charity that supports deaf children and their families to build a strong foundation in early literacy, language acquisition, communication and peer interaction. I witnessed the great work that it delivers to support deaf children and their families and how vital early access to sign language is to them. The children even taught me some sign language, in particular some colours, that I am happy to share with other Members later. <BR /> <BR />As I look up at the Gallery, I see deaf people who use visual languages — signed languages. For the avoidance of doubt, they are languages.”
“In partnership with the Ulster Society for Promoting the Education of the Deaf and Blind and Queen's University Belfast, my Department has co-developed and launched a new deaf sign language studies programme based in the Centre for Translation and Interpreting at Queen's. That the programme is co-founded with the Ulster deaf society is particularly welcome. The programme will support the aims of the Bill and includes a two-year MA in sign language and interpreting at Queen's University Belfast for BSL and ISL students who are both deaf and hearing. The course will further boost interpreting and translating capacity to address current pressures and contribute to the expected increase in demand associated with legislation. It also provides opportunities for academic study and research development into deaf and sign language issues.”
“That is a necessary pathway to qualification and registration as interpreters and translators to support future legislation. <BR /> <BR />The Foyle Deaf Association (FDA) in Londonderry is nearing completion of its interpreter training programme, which is funded by my Department, with successful BSL/ISL students due to register as accredited interpreters in the near future.”
“In clauses 14 and 15, we have the commencement and short title. <BR /> <BR />If the Bill attains Royal Assent, secondary legislation would be required to implement and commence the provisions of the Act. <BR /> <BR />I am aware that the success of the legislation depends on an infrastructure of support for the deaf community, particularly through the building of interpreter capacity to deliver on access to services, which begins with access to information about those services. Therefore, my Department continues to fund accredited BSL/ISL courses across Northern Ireland from level 1, which is beginner level — as Members will now see, I certainly consider myself to be at that end of the scale with my sign language — to level 6, which is degree-equivalent.”
“Clause 13 defines everyday reliance on BSL or ISL as referring to someone who relies "wholly or substantially" on BSL or ISL:”
“Clause 11 provides the definition of members of the deaf community for the purpose the Bill. Also for the purposes of the Bill, clause 12 defines the different forms of BSL and ISL, including:”
“of the Bill within five years of the Bill's commencement and every five-year period thereafter. <BR /> <BR />Clause 10 provides that:”
“Clause 3 places a duty on all prescribed organisations to "take all reasonable steps" to provide access to information and services through the mediums of BSL and ISL. Clause 4 provides powers for the Department for Communities to make regulations that will set out all public bodies that will be subject to the duties set out in clause 3. Clause 5 provides that the Department must issue guidance of which all prescribed organisations must take account. <BR /> <BR />Clause 6 provides that the guidance referred to in clause 5 should address issues of best practice. Clause 7 provides the Department with powers to make regulations relating to the Bill. Clause 8 provides that such regulations must be consulted upon and laid before the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Clause 9 provides that:”
“Clause 1 provides for the official recognition of BSL and ISL as languages of Northern Ireland, without prejudice to any established rights or laws in respect of the deaf community. <BR /> <BR />Clause 2 provides that my Department, as lead Department, will promote:”
“As the lead Department, my Department will develop guidance on best practice, including advice on what may amount to "reasonable steps". <BR /> <BR />In addressing some of the more technical aspects associated with the Bill, I confirm that an equality impact assessment (EQIA) was undertaken that examined the Bill's proposals in the context of the promotion of equality of opportunity and good relations, as required by section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. No adverse impacts were identified. The Bill will place no duties on private enterprises or the voluntary and community sector. Therefore, the Department is satisfied that a regulatory impact assessment is not required. <BR /> <BR />The Bill amounts to 15 clauses, which I will summarise.”
“Sign language differs from country to country in the same way as spoken languages do. Uniquely, across the UK and the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland has two sign languages: BSL and ISL. Around the world, deaf people identify themselves as part of a cultural and linguistic minority and view their sign language as their language of need, not as a communication tool. <BR /> <BR />Like many other non-English speakers, sign language users cannot necessarily access English-based information on government websites or printed leaflets and various types of literature. The Bill recognises and promotes BSL and ISL and places duties on public bodies to take reasonable steps to ensure that the information and services that they provide are as accessible to individuals who are in the deaf community as they are to those who are not.”
“I recognise and appreciate the deaf community's patience during that lengthy period. <BR /> <BR />When I became Minister a year ago, one of my first commitments was that members of the deaf community would have the same rights and opportunities as those in the hearing community through the introduction of a sign language Bill. Today is a significant step for members of the deaf community towards achieving those rights and opportunities. <BR /> <BR />Some may ask why sign language legislation is needed when we have disability protections. That question is based on the misrecognition of sign language. Many hearing people have the false impression that sign language is a worldwide, universal language or a visual translation of a spoken language. That is not the case.”
“That statement reflects the unique nature of the work that has been done to deliver the Bill through three languages: British Sign Language, Irish Sign Language and English. Nothing about us without us: the Bill will ensure that that is the rule rather than the exception. The Bill will also be the basis for my Department's lead role, which includes convening the sign language partnership group, comprising representatives from the deaf community and Departments. <BR /> <BR />In March 2004, the Secretary of State formally recognised BSL and ISL as languages in their own right. That recognition provides no legal protection for the languages. Neither language is covered by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. There has been no Executive recognition or formal Executive-agreed policy or strategy document to date.”
“I welcome the statement by the British Deaf Association (BDA):”
“My understanding is that the reference has not been removed. In fact, the use of information from the Companies House website is only one tool that is available to staff to verify a claimant's employment status. A more reliable source of information is the benefits system interface with HMRC. To be clear, staff are not prevented from accessing information on the Companies House website. Rather, they are encouraged to use the most efficient route for obtaining the relevant information, and my understanding is that that is the benefits system interface with HMRC.”
“That is certainly the case at the moment. Perhaps one of the reasons why the levels of payback of that money are not as high as we would like is because it is done over a long period in amounts that are manageable for the claimant. Certainly, we need to make sure that we are recovering that money, but we also need to make sure that it is done in a sustainable way so that we can get back the resource that should not have been taken.”
“Again, that is something that the task and finish group can look at in order to make sure that we are keeping appropriate records, which can be helpful in tackling this issue as well as in monitoring how we are doing as a Department.”
“Yes. All departmental staff get the appropriate training and are responsible for creating and maintaining the records in accordance with management best practice. The Department manages the retention and secure disposal of information in line with business requirement and legal obligations and ensures that personal data is not retained for longer than is necessary. We have a retention and disposal schedule in place that sets out the retention periods for all data, and that is regularly reviewed. Information must be kept for the length of time that is defined in the schedule, unless there is a legal requirement to destroy it sooner. However, I know that that issue has been raised and that comparisons have been made with data retention in the rest of the United Kingdom.”
“Let me be very clear, lest anybody misrepresents what I am saying today. This is not about making it more difficult for those who are legitimate claimants, nor is it an attack on those who are in receipt of benefits. It is about making sure that the money and the resource goes to those who actually need it.”
“As I said in answer to a previous question, this is not about making it more difficult for people who are applying in good faith for benefits, nor is it about asking for more onerous information. It is about when there has been a detection of error or fraud, and we are putting the resources in there to properly investigate it and taking that through to its natural conclusion. That is where the investigation will take place as well. <BR /> <BR />What I also want to see is a very strong and robust system that sends a strong and robust message that this is not something that we are prepared to tolerate. If you are found to be in breach, we will be coming after you to make sure that we get that money back, because you are not entitled to it. I think that most people in Northern Ireland will welcome that approach.”
“Absolutely. We need to tackle fraud and error. If there are issues in the Department that need to be looked at, I want to see that happen. That can be part of the task and finish group's work. We have identified issues before, such as with carers' overpayments, and there are processes in place now to make sure that people are alerted to that. It is in everybody's interests to make sure that we deal with all areas of fraud and error. Our shared determination and goal should be that those who need support get it and that those who are not eligible do not get it. The figures are stark and show that we need to take action.”
“Yes, I can give the Member the figures again. Last year, it was £163·2 million; in 2022, £119 million; in 2021, £138 million; in 2020, £99·5 million; and in 2019, £65 million. In 2019, the level of fraud was estimated at 1%. That is now up to 2%, obviously with an increased benefit spend as well. That is why it is so much more. That is why we need to take action. I know, because I get requests from Members right across the Chamber, that there are many different areas where we would like that money to be spent, be it in our benefits system or outside it, so why should we not take every action possible to ensure that we tackle fraud?”
“We can compare ourselves with other jurisdictions and the rest of the UK. As I said in my statement, the issue affects all jurisdictions. However, regardless of the different levels that there may be, ours is too high. A level of 2%, which equates to £163·2 million, requires us to take action. I do not think that any of us should be happy with where that figure is right now. I can tell you this: I have many more uses for that money, which I would like to bid for from the UK Government. Ultimately, the money that was lost last year — £163 million — came from hard-working taxpayers who are already taxed to death right now. We need to do everything that we can to press down on that. I will say this: even if we were the best in the whole of the United Kingdom at 2%, I would still want us to do far more.”
“There will be the opportunity for us to recover some of the funding through our investigations, but, ultimately, additional savings that are made after that will belong to the Treasury. However, whether that money goes back to London or we are able to keep it here, ultimately, it is taxpayers' money and we need to ensure that it is spent in the best way possible. I want to continue to press on the issue to ensure that we tackle it because we must not let it continue at its current level.”
“First, I welcome the Member to the House. I am not sure whether that was her first question, but I am very glad that she has taken an interest in these matters. <BR /> <BR />I am bidding for additional resource to ensure that we do everything that we can to tackle fraud and error. It is not about making it more difficult for all those who apply but about dealing with those who have been found to be in breach and having the resource to investigate when something does not add up. I do not want to make it any harder for those who are entitled to benefits to be able to get them.”
“I am grateful to the Member for her question. Staffing costs on fraud compliance and intervention activities, with a small level of general expenditure, building costs and IT and training, was approximately £0·5 million. That is out of the total of £15·8 million that we currently spend each year on fraud and error, so there is much more work to be done.”
“Yes, absolutely, I agree, for the fundamental reason that this is not simply public money. It is money that is put into the public purse by taxpayers, which means that there is a responsibility on us to make sure that we spend it appropriately. All actions should be taken to make sure that we recover the money from those who have cheated the system. Unfortunately, those sums have not been as high as I would like them to be. In the last full financial year that we have the records for, which was 2023-24, we recovered just over £1 million. In that year, we had a loss of £163 million to fraud. That is simply not good enough. I want the task and finish working group to look at that issue to make sure that we are recovering more and to take away any incentive that people think that there might be for engaging in that type of behaviour.”
“No, I do not believe that there will be any impact on GDPR, because this is something that already takes place in other areas and has been done before. I have not sought advice on the issue directly. It is a decision that I have taken, and officials are now making sure that it will be put in place. Ultimately, it is for Ministers to decide on these issues.”
“In 2024-25, I bid for £20 million, of which £17·3 million was for current fraud and error activities and an additional £2·7 million was for an increased intervention, which included more staff. I bid for £20 million, but, unfortunately, I received only £16·5 million.”
“I am grateful to the Member for her support for the steps that I am taking. It is difficult for us to get an exact comparison, because prosecutions that are initiated in one year may not follow through until later on. There are figures on successful benefit fraud prosecutions over the past number of years. In 2020-21, we had 75 prosecutions; in 2021-22, we had 98; in 2022-23, we had 51; and in 2023-24, we had 40. I certainly believe that there is more work to do. I want the task and finish group to look at making sure that those who are found to have deliberately misrepresented their situation are prosecuted. Ultimately, hard-working taxpayers are paying for it. I think that most people will want to see us take a very robust approach, including prosecutions.”
“I think that it is fair and straightforward, because we should take a zero tolerance approach to those who misrepresent their financial situation in order to get money that they are not entitled to.”
“We should use every tool that is in our box to make sure that we make such fraud as difficult as possible for people in the first place and that we identify those who are guilty and pursue them. If there is a conviction, it is only right that it is highlighted. We do that across other Departments. If someone is disqualified from being a company director because of activities that they are involved in, the Department for the Economy puts that information on its website. It was the same in the past for those who have been convicted for other things. For example, it happens when DAERA challenges those who have been found guilty of pollution offences. Why should there not be a consistent approach?”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not have figures on the difference between cases of fraud and error, but we are aware that significant sums are involved. The total estimated level of customer fraud in 2023 was 2% of the total expenditure.”
“First, it is not my role to tackle tax evasion. That does not come under the auspices of the Department for Communities or even the Northern Ireland Executive. I make no apology, however, for wanting to make sure that we have a welfare system that is fit for purpose and that only those who are entitled to help get it. I hope that everybody in the House can unite behind that. <BR /> <BR />I disagree with the Member about naming people. I believe that, when someone has done something wrong and there is evidence of their deliberately trying to misrepresent their circumstances in order to get additional resource or funding, it is everybody's business. We should use every tool that we have to deal with that. If naming people makes a difference, it is right that we do it.”