Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I hope, however, that we are able to make a little bit of a distinction. I can assure Mr Allen that I will do what I can to ensure that the funding goes towards the communities that need it most.”
“I put on record, however, the need to support the deaf community as originally defined and that there are issues with our changing the provision without having given proper consideration to doing so. That is why we have the amendment today. <BR /> <BR />I could give so many examples of how so often in the House we — in good faith, I am sure — vote for things because we think that it is the right thing to do, because it sounds as though it is the right thing to do or because it sounds as though doing so could be positive or popular. The point of being in the Chamber is to scrutinise issues, to explore the arguments that others are making and to take on board what others are saying. I think that it was a mistake to make the amendment at Consideration Stage. We are not able to undo that mistake completely today.”
“It would be a great idea if I could leave instructions for the next Minister. I will certainly see what I can do on that score. The legislation will certainly be resourced during my time in office, and I hope that I can establish a precedent that we help those who are most in need and that we support that particular community, which exists because of the unique circumstances in which those people find themselves. That community needs to be protected, but doing that will require resources. <BR /> <BR />I say again that I do not think that it was Kellie Armstrong's intention to cause offence or concern. I think that she tabled the amendment in good faith. I think that she saw her own circumstances and wanted to make sure that they were taken into consideration.”
“In doing so, I believe that we will get the Bill to its Final Stage on time, by the end of the month. Doing that has not been easy, and I thank the office —.”
“There are additional needs involved. There is a different culture in place. There are not the options that are available to others. Indeed, there are not the languages that are available to others, and that has been highlighted during the debate. The two are therefore not the same. Sign language is not simply signed English or signed Irish. Rather, BSL and ISL are separate languages altogether, and there needs to be respect for them. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Mr Allen. I fear that the changes that have been made to the Bill dilute that distinction. That is a concern that members of the deaf community share. We are, however, doing what we can today to resolve some of the issues that the amendments that were made at Consideration Stage created.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although I recognise the concerns across the deaf community about the change that was made at Consideration Stage to the definition of "deaf community" in clause 12, which now includes people who have hearing loss who wish to learn sign language, a change that I opposed, I am sure that it was not Kellie Armstrong's intention to cause offence or concern. As a result of the amendments that we make today, however, I think that we can confirm that the deaf community encompasses deaf people who use sign language as well as accommodate the amendment to include those who become deaf and wish to learn sign language. It is important that we make that distinction and that we understand that the experience of someone who has progressive hearing loss is very different from that of other members of the deaf community.”
“They will tell you that that was a decision taken by a hearing establishment. Therein lie the roots of the establishment of the British Deaf Association and, from that, many organisations for the deaf in Northern Ireland: the Foyle Deaf Association, Action Deaf Youth and Hands That Talk, to name a few. <BR /> <BR />I am conscious that this place is viewed by the deaf community as a largely hearing establishment. I am also certain that, due to the progress of the Sign Language Bill and the progress made across many Assembly processes through its embracing of the use and facilitation of BSL and ISL, it is now viewed as a more welcoming place for the deaf community.”
“By recognising their languages — British Sign Language and Irish Sign Language — we finally get what that community has, for decades, been telling anyone who would listen: these are languages of need. It is not simply one of a number of options that are available to them for communication. <BR /> <BR />Recognising and promoting BSL, ISL and their culture — deaf culture — is our way of saying, "You matter, and you are equal to your hearing peers". Promoting their languages and their culture is also a way for the deaf community to share their rich heritage and fascinating history, one that often featured systemic unfairness. Many deaf people will know of the infamous Milan conference in 1880 that outlawed the teaching of sign languages in schools across Europe and the US.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank everybody for their comments today and for their commitment to the aims of the Bill. Throughout the progression of the legislation, the tone of debate and scrutiny has been collaborative. Even though we had a divergence of views at Consideration Stage, it was done in a respectful way, which reflects the importance of the issues that we are discussing. <BR /> <BR />The Bill was developed through co-design with members of the deaf community to improve their lives and ensure access to public services. However, through dialogue with the community, I realised that it is actually more than that. Sign language is how members of the deaf community interact within their own community; how they interact with a largely hearing society; and how they socialise, work, laugh, learn and mourn.”
“I am sure that everyone is following along with me and understands entirely what I am saying. I believe that my amendment Nos 5 to 8, which reword amendment No 22 from Consideration Stage, provide a sound way forward that ensures that rights under the substantive provisions are provided to people who have actual needs for the time being; rights that may have been perceived to have been removed or diluted. The references to those who, at any time, use or will ever benefit from use of BSL or ISL also fully reflect the intent of amendment No 22, which was carried by the House. Therefore, for the reasons that I have set out, I ask the House to support my amendments. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for their time and for the work that was done to ensure that the Bill could proceed to this point. I commend my amendments to the House.”
“That is what the BDA had to say. <BR /> <BR />During Consideration Stage, some Members suggested that they would welcome some refining of the wording of the amended clause. On that basis, and to allay concerns from the deaf community, my officials sought the view of the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC) on whether it was possible to revisit the wording of amendment No 22 while fully respecting the Assembly's intent in approving amendment No 22. That is reflected in my amendment Nos 5 to 8. <BR /> <BR />My amendment No 5, which inserts after "who" the words "at any time use, or", addresses normal present and future use. My amendment No 6 leaves out "will" as my amendment No 7 inserts "ever" before "benefit", which accommodates that future "use of" as referenced in my amendment No 8.”
“That is factual. It does not refer to persons or groups who appear, or who will appear, to the Department for Communities to be representative or cognisant of the views or interests of the deaf community; it is grounded in those who are deaf at that moment in time. In future, if that changes, the wording remains relevant and appropriate. I refer to the BDA's concerns. It states that the amendment presents an:”
“Members will be aware that that amendment has been the cause of unease across the deaf community. My officials have been contacted by various deaf people and organisations, including the British Deaf Association (BDA), which outlined its particular concerns on the matter. The amendment has caused confusion amongst some who struggle to be clear on its reference to people who will, or will potentially, benefit from using sign language in future and how that will be assessed and/or assured. The Bill was drafted to accommodate people who are already deaf and who use and rely on sign language. For example, under "Department's manner of engagement" at clause 9(1)(a), it states:”
“My amendment No 4 is consequential to amendment No 3 in that it omits duplication of text that is dealt with in amendment No 3. As I stated at Consideration Stage, work has continued with deaf organisations on the development and launch of a pilot programme of classes for adults who have become deaf aged 25 or over and their families and carers. Subject to demand, those classes will be available in BSL and ISL. <BR /> <BR />I will now move to my amendment Nos 5 to 8. At Consideration Stage, amendment No 22 had the effect of changing the definition of membership of the deaf community at clause 12 from:”
“Members will note that the amended wording changes the fee-paying regulations from negative procedure to affirmative, and I understand that Ms Armstrong took the point about consistency across the Bill. Therefore, my amendment Nos 1 and 2 pave the way for the rewording of clause 2. <BR /> <BR />My amendment No 3 is mainly a restructuring of clause 2(2) so that the whole clause flows neatly together from the headline promotion duty as outlined in clause 2. However, the issue of whether fees can be charged or not is tied expressly to the particular category of classes. As I have stated, the issue of the statutory rule procedure change from negative to draft affirmative, as trailed in the Consideration Stage debate, is also dealt with in amendment No 3.”
“Today's amendments do not seek to interfere with the agreed Assembly position but, rather, seek to address some drafting inconsistencies and align an issue of procedure. <BR /> <BR />I will address my amendment Nos 1 to 4. They make technical changes to improve the structure of clause 2 following the amendments made at Consideration Stage. At Consideration Stage, amendment No 4 to clause 2 added provision for classes for adults who become deaf aged 25 or over and their families and carers. It also dealt with the matter of charging for the classes and outlined that the regulations in that respect should be by negative procedure. Amendment No 5 was consequential to the approval of amendment No 4.”
“The amendments have been drafted to deliver on the three amendments approved by the Assembly at Consideration Stage: amendment Nos 4, 5 and 22, which were tabled by Kellie Armstrong MLA. The House will be aware of my concerns that those amendments, to varying degrees, can be considered to impact on the nature of the Bill. My officials and I have been contacted by members of the deaf community and its representatives, who highlighted the fact that they share those concerns. My officials subsequently engaged with the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC) to assess whether some further amendments were necessary. Before us today is the OLC refinement, which aims to better accommodate those amendments.”
“I am sure that that will be welcomed across the Chamber but, more importantly, by the deaf community, which has shown remarkable patience, for which I am very grateful. I can tell you that the deaf community is already engaging with my officials in the planning of an event to mark the final stage of the journey towards the Bill's enactment. That will mark the realisation of that community's long road to statutory recognition of its languages and culture. <BR /> <BR />The Bill has been scrutinised, refined and changed following Committee scrutiny, with 19 amendments agreed with the Committee and approved by the House at Consideration Stage. I will now address my eight amendments before the House today.”
“I will start by acknowledging the Assembly debate at Consideration Stage and the amendments that were made. During that debate, I spoke about moving beyond symbolic recognition and delivering practical, meaningful change for British Sign Language (BSL) and Irish Sign Language (ISL) users. I spoke about active promotion of sign languages and deaf culture and ensuring that recognition is reflected in how services are delivered every day. Now that the Sign Language Bill has reached Further Consideration Stage, we are closer than ever to achieving those aims. We are ever closer to passing legislation that tells people in the BSL, ISL and deafblind community, "You matter, and you have rights". <BR /> <BR />With the support of the House today, I hope to schedule Final Stage at the earliest opportunity.”
“I look forward to revealing more on Wednesday.”
“Ensuring the long-term delivery of the scheme is vital. One of the key bits of feedback from the voluntary and community sector was that the schemes are too few and far between, so I am working to ensure that the scheme is baselined in my Department and will continue to deliver for those sectors. It is also important to give reassurance to those who will have invested in making their application. <BR /> <BR />I am also pleased to say that it has been opened to faith groups and churches, which play an incredible role in our local communities. I look forward to seeing the churches that will benefit from the fund. It is important that they be supported. Under my leadership, the Department for Communities has been a faith-friendly Department. It is right that we recognise the incredible work that churches do, along with other organisations.”
“I put on record my thanks to the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and his team for ensuring that additional funding will be put in place so that we will maximise delivery for rural communities. It is right that we reflect on the fact that a need was identified, I put in place a system, it is being stepped up and, on Wednesday, we will hear about the communities that will be transformed by the funding that is made available.”
“I am pleased to say that, on Wednesday, I will make an announcement about those who were successful in applying to the Northern Ireland community infrastructure fund. It is often the case that, in the Chamber, we get a hard time and get accused of not delivering or not getting things done. Oftentimes, that may be justified, but the Northern Ireland community infrastructure fund is a prime example of where we have been able to deliver against a need, and the significant oversubscription to the fund demonstrates that need acutely. <BR /> <BR />The importance of the timing of the fund is also not lost on me, given the recent impact on the voluntary and community sector of the reduction in the local growth fund. The community infrastructure fund is a good example of two Departments working together.”
“That is one of the reasons why we made the changes that we have to intimidation points. It was wrong that certain groups of people who are under threat of violence or other threat had priority over other groups. The Housing Executive will carry out that work to make sure that the policies are right, are up to date and ensure that those who are in need get support and that their circumstances are taken into consideration.”
“I am grateful to the Member for raising that issue. It is absolutely right that we have that support in place. The Housing Executive has a policy on the matter so that support can be provided and people can understand the unique nature of the challenge that is faced by those who are contending with domestic abuse and help them. We know the control that is exerted on them and the impacts and difficulties that that creates. That is why we have a plan in place through the Housing Executive. I will certainly do everything that I can to support that. <BR /> <BR />I also acknowledge Linda Dillon's question earlier. If there are issues of concern, I am happy to chase them up and make sure that we put in place what needs to be done so that we can help those who, I truly believe, are vulnerable.”
“I expect to confirm a launch timetable shortly, with the intention of ensuring that the service becomes available as quickly as practicably possible for veterans, transitioning personnel and their families. For too long, our veterans have been taken for granted. I am proud to have been able to use resource in my Department to deliver the service, and I look forward to launching it in due course.”
“My Department will promote the pathway through veterans' roadshows, jobs and benefits offices, veterans' champions and partner organisations such as the Veterans Commissioner for Northern Ireland and the Office for Veterans' Affairs. None of that work was done before I came into office. None of those preparations had been made. Our veterans should be treated on an equal basis, and their service should not be held against them. This is one of the ways in which I will make sure that that happens.”
“I am grateful to the Member for her question. I am pleased to say that work on the dedicated armed forces liaison pathway is well advanced. My officials are finalising the design of the single-point-of-contact model, including referral routes, support processes and staff training requirements. Once those elements are completed, the pathway will move to the implementation stage. Although I am keen to see the phone line in operation as quickly as possible, it is vital that we invest time in ensuring that the appropriate operating principles and guard rails are in place so that we can build veterans' trust to enable them to engage with our services with confidence. <BR /> <BR />Raising awareness is also a key priority.”
“What is left is in the area of free speech and debate, and it would not be appropriate for us to get into that area and place limitations on what people can think or what they can say to other people. <BR /> <BR />I am therefore not prepared to bring forward something that is not right and that does not work for Northern Ireland. I am happy to engage with anybody who wants to engage. I am happy to have the debate. Some people just say, "Give us a strategy". What is in the strategy, however? What do we want it to do? Unfortunately, far too much of the debate has been driven by ideology. What is in the draft sexual orientation strategy right now simply will not fly.”
“I do not think that the Member listened to what I just said. Perhaps she had her supplementary question prepared before she listened to what I had to say. That is the problem when people are driven by ideology. They do not care about evidence or alternative views, nor do they care about facts or having a proper debate. I have concerns with the work that has been done. I do not think that what is in there will get agreement at the Executive. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned conversion therapy in particular. The reason that the UK Government and the Scottish Government have not been able to pass any legislation on conversion therapy is because so much of what people want to see outlawed is already outlawed in legislation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The group itself has said that there is a notable lack of available data, yet it makes sweeping commitments in the draft strategy, and that is of concern to me. I have already had an engagement with some of the interested groups and was due to have another one last week that had to be postponed because the Executive meeting ran on. I am, however, prepared to sit down with the groups to see whether there is room for us to make sure that we help people. I want to be in a position in which we are providing help, but, unfortunately, the work that has been done does not come anywhere close to what would be acceptable to the Executive.”
“I have considered the work of the co-design group on the draft strategy in depth over recent weeks. I have to say that I have some concerns about what is in there. It portrays itself as a document of inclusion, but I am concerned about its ideological nature. In particular, I do not believe that it has been evidence-led. Rather, I believe that it has been activist-led. I therefore have a number of concerns, in particular with what is proposed on some of the transgender issues. I do not think that the work that has been done properly respects those who take a different view of gender ideology or takes account of parental views, sex-realist views, biological reality, free speech, the protection of women and girls, safeguarding issues or any evidence-based policy at all.”
“Very important work is being done, and we want those groups to be sustainable. I ask the MLAs or whatever political representatives are going to be there to write to me jointly after the meeting with any suggestions as to how we might be able to help out. If there something that we can do, we will, of course, do it.”
“That was raised with me briefly, and I know the concern that many have expressed. The Member will understand where we are with the budgetary situation and that we are unable to provide all the certainty that we might otherwise like to. However, I am more than happy to take any specific examples of pressure that people are under that she has, and I will see whether we can find a way to help with that. It is creating an additional layer of difficulty, so, if there is a way that I can help, I am happy to do that.”
“I assure the Member that that is not the intention. We want to make sure that the card covers everybody and anybody who can supply. We will do work over the coming months to make sure that that is the case. One of the reasons why it will take longer is that we do not currently have that distribution list.”
“<BR /> <BR />Again, I will impress the point on Members that a very simple, straightforward way to provide relief to those in need, a way that targets everybody and helps with some of the inflationary pressures that we are facing, is to see a cut in fuel duty and tax on home heating oil. That would provide not just immediate relief but help in the longer term with so many of the other issues that we face.”
“That is the difficulty with having a policy in place that does not have the necessary infrastructure right now to support people. I have said that it will take at least three months before we can get that out to people. Further consultation will be required with some of the key stakeholders and those who will assist us in the work that we are doing. There will also be a process for the Committee. I want to make sure that it is done as quickly as possible, but it is far from perfect. It does not target everybody who needs help or is struggling. However, we are doing what we can with what we have.”
“We are bringing them forward. As I said in the initial answer, public consultations will follow in sequence, and the majority of the process will be completed before the summer. We want to give that time so that people who have an interest in the overlapping policies have time to respond. I want to make sure that it is done, and I am driving it forward.”
“Final policies will be published once consultation responses have been analysed and fully considered, and a collated heritage, culture and creativity action plan will follow when the suite of policies is finalised.”
“I am pleased to confirm that the preparation of public consultations for each policy in my heritage, culture and creativity programme is now at an advanced stage. I expect the first consultation in respect of the museums policy to launch next week. My officials are finalising practical arrangements for that. The public consultations on the libraries, arts and historical environment policies will follow in sequence, and I expect the majority of the process to be complete before the summer. That approach will see consultations for each policy being launched in a staggered fashion to ensure that those with overlapping interests have adequate time to provide a response to each one in turn, should they wish to do so.”
“I am bringing proposals to the Executive, some of which are with them right now and others will come forward shortly. We all need to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to build more homes. There is also a responsibility on our councils to make sure that our local development plans are fit for purpose and allow us to build homes where they need to be built.”
“I understand that a very difficult Budget situation is ahead of us, and capital funding is no different from other money, but, when you make a pledge to build so many homes, you need to see the money follow that pledge so that we can do it. <BR /> <BR />It does not just come down to funding for housing, however. We need to make sure that the right infrastructure is in place as well, including waste water infrastructure. We also need to make sure that the correct planning policies are in place, that our councils have local development plans and that we have properly zoned land in the right places so that we can build more homes. Some of that rests directly with Ministers — for instance, waste water rests with DFI — but there is a collective responsibility on the Executive.”
“As I said, we need to make sure that we have more supply, so how do we manage that? Our housing supply strategy is now in place, and the action plans will follow from that. We need to make sure, however, that the funding is in place first of all so that we can build more social homes. I have done what I can by stretching the money that we have and asking housing associations to stretch themselves more so that we can deliver more homes. That is the right thing to do, and we will see the benefit of that, but we need to make sure that the Executive properly fund housing as well. The Programme for Government says that housing is a priority and sets a target, so the money needs to follow that.”
“I have worked with Women's Aid in the past at both a constituency and Northern Ireland-wide level, and I am happy to do so again to make sure that we provide the support that is needed.”
“Absolutely. The Member is right to raise that issue. Many factors affect those who leave their home as a result of domestic abuse. We need to make sure that we cover all bases and do what we can to provide assistance. The Housing Executive has been key in doing that work and has its strategy. I am happy to look again at some of the figures to see where there is particular demand, but, if the Member has particular concerns, I am more than happy to hear them, because we absolutely need to be receptive and responsive to that issue. I will certainly work with the Housing Executive to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to help those who are most in need. We often talk about the vulnerable in our society; few are more vulnerable than those whom she described.”
“It is true, because unless we deal with the issue of demand and the lack of supply, we will never be able to tackle the issue. In the past, I have provided, and I am happy to do so again, to the House the information, research and evidence that show that it simply will not work for people. Our focus needs to be on what has been proven time and time again to work, which is an increase in the supply of housing across all tenures in Northern Ireland. That is what I want to do.”
“I understand that the Member is passionate about the issue, and he is bringing forward what he thinks is the solution. However, as I have said repeatedly, his solutions will make things worse —.”
“I am committed to doing everything that we can to increase the supply of homes because, ultimately, that is the only way, in the long term, that we can actually deal with the level of rent.”
“Of course, any further work in this mandate on the sort of legislation that the Member might be talking about would not be feasible from a practical point of view. However, I do not think that those sorts of controls ultimately help to achieve what we think that they might achieve. In fact, nearly all the evidence that we have collated shows that they have a severely negative impact on rents. Ultimately, as I said in my original answer, this comes down to supply and demand. That means that we need to do everything that we can, and to stretch ourselves, so that we can build as many homes as possible. We are trying to do that in a number of ways. I have set those out already.”
“Shortly, I will bring out the first detailed action plan to support its delivery. <BR /> <BR />I remain focused on increasing the supply of affordable homes across Northern Ireland. That includes building substantially more social homes. That is why, last October, I set a grant rate that challenges housing associations to deliver more homes per pound of public funds. It is why I am introducing new homes at an affordable rent and why I continue to support Co-Ownership to help people to achieve affordable home ownership.”